What would a championship winning penholder have to be like today?

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There was some discussion in the other thread but I think there could be a separate thread.

I think xx is good but he plays so far off the table and has no backhand.

-First trait obviously would be a dominant FH like XX or ma lin. With all the penhold backhand advancements a penholder needs a fh advantage because shakehand bh is always going to be better, right?

-super fast feet like ryu sun min or xx

-dominant serve and short game

-good game close to the table


Couldn't such a player still compete with ma long or FZD? I mean with all his flaws xx coud compete pretty well. And the banana flick return should almost work better or at least as good with RBP, right?

So basically a slightly more powerful and fit wang hao type would still be very dangerous.
 
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I think there was some data out there that supported that players that were better at blocking tended to do better in matches. Although blocking is replaced by close table counter, there is still some truth in it, that being able to deal with attacks is a very necessary skill.

Even with aggressive play like Xu Xin's, the opponent will always be able to find opportunities to attack and counter attack you. Being able to deal with these attacks close to the table is a skill that both Ma Long and Fan Zhengdong have, a skill that they both use against eachother and Xu Xin.

As a lefty penholder myself, I would say that if Xu Xin had a better backhand that dealt with attacks, he wouldn't have to step around so much and take huge risks. All of the huge comebacks that you see with Xu Xin is because he stopped making risky step-arounds, stayed near the middle of the table, and safely making backhand shots.




I still make those big step around shots sometimes, but I have found a lot more success into getting my backhand up to par, keeping up with my opponents attacks. It gives me more options when it comes to dealing with attacks. I am able to block, attack, and counter attack with my backhand.

***************

When it comes to world class play, shot quality is key. It may be the case that Xu Xin's backhand might not be world no.1 quality. I would say that is the reason why he is not able to keep up with Ma Long and Fan Zhengdong, who keep catching Xu Xin out of position.

If there was a championship winning penholder, he would need a better quality backhand. He doesn't necessarily have to play like Wang Hao, he just needs to be able to handle attacks better on the backhand. So a penhold Ma Long.
 
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I think the player basically has to be Wang Hao. Even though he came up just short in the Olympics, we have to remember just how good he was for so long. I think his skill level was right there.

But for it to happen today, they'd have to be like him and willing to play more middle of the table. Not afraid to go backhand to backhand. Basically play like all the modern shakhanders do.

I sometimes wonder if XX's backhand weakness is partly due to the fact that he's left handed and largely using it against other top pro's forehands which is a problem. Xu Xin never goes backhand to backhand rallies because he stands on the other side of the table. Would Wang Hao, Wong Chun Ting and Xue Fei still have significantly better backhands than Xu Xin if they were also left handed? Hard to say. I'm probably just making too much of it and the truth of the matter is that XX's BH comparatively speaking to other top pros is really, really weak. And he knows it. That's why he almost plays like a single winged penholder a lot of times which gets him into trouble positioning wise.


But I digress.


For a penholder to to be world champion today, they'd basically have to play like Wang Hao. It's not the style that's keeping one from being world champion. It's simply the fact that such a small percentage I think are playing penhold at a young age. Shakehand dominates.
 
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Wouldn't be the classic penhold counterhit/block be almost better to deal with attacks to the backhand? Some old school penholders were pretty good at blocking the ball back fast with the traditional backhand
 
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Regarding wang hao I think it was mostly mental collapses and at times also getting a little fat that kept him from succeeding.

He was a big favourite against ryu and choked.
 
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Wang Hao was amazing. Wang Hao could go BH to BH with anyone. He had one of the best BHs ever.

Penhold and shakehand have different advantages.

I think the real downside to penhold is not the style itself or what players are capable of at the highest levels. I think the downside of penhold is that the art of the style takes longer to MASTER than shakehand.

So, where it might take 3 years for a talented young player to get to a certain level shakehand, it could take a year or two more to get to that same level penhold.

So I think the coaching decisions of the last several years have been to invest in the style that gets young players past the advanced intermediate stage and up to the ELITE amateur level (semi-pro level) the fastest.

Once a player is past that Elite level, I think the stage is pretty even....except that there seems to be 10 shakehand players to every penhold player who even get to that level these days (the numbers may be even more lopsided).

Another detail: I have seen penhold players switch to shakehand fairly smoothly. I think trying to transition from shakehand to penhold is much harder.

I think this is the real reason behind the slow fade we are seeing of the art and artistry of penhold play.

But if you think about Wang Hao, never had outstanding mobility, always battled a little with his weight, didn't have one of those penhold FH cannons and he still was one of the best players ever.

Think about it. And think of what a master of short game he was.


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Wang Hao 's BH with XX's FH and Ryu Seung-Min's footwork can top anybody anytime. Regarding penholders, I still dont understand what special benefit RPB backhand brings to the table . Better to play shakehand BH rather than unnatural RPB BH. In my observation anybody trying to have(or has) a great RPB BH screws his FH e.g. WH. And if his penhold FH is strong , the RPB BH is already screwed e.g. XX. May be thats how the penhold grip works. Any expert comments on this ??
 
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Wong Chun Ting's and Xue Fei's style is modern enough. However I don't think Xue Fei will be world number one at any time.
His footwork seems a little sluggish sometimes (compared to other chinese players) and I can't see enough fire in him. Still, Liu Guoliang said that he has a better backhand than Wang Hao in his age.
 
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I still dont understand what special benefit RPB backhand brings to the table . Better to play shakehand BH rather than unnatural RPB BH.In my observation anybody trying to have(or has) a great RPB BH screws his FH.

Sounds like you're a shakehander which is fine if so.

I don't see how the RPB effects the FH at all. If anything, it allows you to have to run around fewer shots to hit your FH at the same time putting you out of position. You're free to just play the more agressive RPB vs the slower TPB directional block.

But for penholders almost universally, RPB is just better than TPB. I even caught an interview a few weeks ago of He Zhi Wen saying the RPB is better. Just trust us on this one. There's a reason why all young penholders now a days use the RPB almost exclusively.
 
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Rbp is better but also at passive play against power shots to the BH?

He zhi wen could block gard shots pretty easy with his bh while staying close to the table. Why not use classic in passive play and rpb for attacking?
 
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Rbp is better but also at passive play against power shots to the BH?

He zhi wen could block gard shots pretty easy with his bh while staying close to the table. Why not use classic in passive play and rpb for attacking?

+1

I think they both have their place. Particularly on the ameteur level where change of pace is good. On the pro level, it seems anything slower mostly gets killed but I don't know.

I find the chop/side block easy to execute with TPB and I like it as a change up. Ma Lin used the shot a lot an now Ma Long has his own shakehand version. I still myself use the TPB on blocks where i'm close to the table because I grew up playing TPB so it's instinct but yeah on more aggressive shots (off the table attacking, banana flip, etc), I use RPB.

 
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This person would play like Wang Hao only just a little better. Not a lot. Just a little. Make him maybe a little quicker on his feet, perhaps a bit fitter. Penhold is viable, and people forget how good he was in his prime (and how Ma Long couldn't get past him for a long time). I know people will say "but the new balls" but I just don't buy that. In fact other than grip, Wang Hao was a lot like FZD, and there were very few if any opening backhands better in the history of the game, except probably for FZD.
 
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Wang Hao 's BH with XX's FH and Ryu Seung-Min's footwork can top anybody anytime. Regarding penholders, I still dont understand what special benefit RPB backhand brings to the table . Better to play shakehand BH rather than unnatural RPB BH. In my observation anybody trying to have(or has) a great RPB BH screws his FH e.g. WH. And if his penhold FH is strong , the RPB BH is already screwed e.g. XX. May be thats how the penhold grip works. Any expert comments on this ??
The strength of penhold lies in the flexible wrist. That translates into diversity of short game techniques. The legend of short game is Ma Lin. Remember Ma Lin had beaten many players that are taller and stronger than him such as WLQ, WH and Boll. Short game and smart placement can effectively limit the offensive power of the opponents. But sadly nobody can match Ma Lin's level right now.

With regard to penhold RPB - its special bonus is side spin when flicking or looping. The natural position of the wrist creates side spin.

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I agree with Carl, in China coaches prefer to train up SH kids coz they progress more quickly to a competitive level.

PH kids need special characteristics to succeed. Take WH for example, his ex coach Wu Jinping said WH's wrist is wider and bigger than average kids. That allowed him to play RPB with comparable power to SH players (if not better).


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