Table Tennis Blade Building Site

UpSideDownCarl · Aug 30, 2017

TheWoodenBlade said:
Correct, because as I have said, I lack the necessary knowledge in that regard. I'm dependent on others to give me feedback to direct my blade building. I have no intention of selling blades, simply making them for my own enjoyment and creative outlet. I'm much more a woodworker than a table tennis player (currently), and I've never claimed to be anything I'm not.

If you have ideas that you think would be good in terms of plies and substrates, I'm all ears.

My suggestion to you is to start trying as many different rackets as you can. Just ask anyone who has a racket to let you try it. When you try, focus on seeing how the wood feels under the rubber. What you feel. Things like, does the wood feel crisp on contact, or dull, does the blade feel like it grabs the ball or not. Does the ball feel like it stays on the blade a little bit longer, or does the blade shoot the ball out fast.

See if you can feel the top ply and the ply under it. With some blades, you can feel the ball sink in more before the ball gets projected out. With other blades the ball just gets propelled out as soon as the ball hits the blade surface.

One of the reason's for the popularity and success of Butterfly's ALC composite blades on the pro level is that the softness of the Arylate, and the speed added by the carbon, cause you to feel the ball sink into the top ply, stay there for a moment and then get projected out.

This extra dwell time, despite the hard Koto top ply makes it so you can get a lot of spin without losing speed from the blade. And that feeling of the ball sinking in and then that crisp response from the blade after the ball sinks in makes those blades work very well for TT.

With many wood ply constructions like:

Koto-Spruce-Ayous-Spruce-Koto

The spruce ply under the Koto ply does the same kind of thing because the spruce ply is naturally springy.

In a Clipper:

Limba-Ayous-Ayous-Ayous-Ayous-Ayous-Limba

They get a similar effect because the top ply is so thin, that even though it is soft, it lets the ball sink in to the ply under it more easily and you get that dwell time and crisp snap as the ball is catapulted out.

Or in a blade like the Korbel:

Limba-Limba-Ayous-Limba-Limba

Butterfly has used thicker limba plies to get an extra soft feeling from the blade that allows you to hold the ball on the blade surface for a long time and really get a lot more spin. And yet, the ply construction also makes it so that the Korbel is decently fast for a five ply all wood blade.

However, if, in a TT blade you use a hard top ply, hard middle plies and hard core, you are going to have a blade that projects the ball out too fast so you don't have enough time with the ball on the rubber to really generate decent spin. That kind of construction would make your offensive shots faster but with less spin and it would make your short game and touch shots much harder to control.

A player at a high level would be able to control a blade like what I just described. But they would not want to because it would not do what the player was looking for from a good blade. Which is enough dwell time to generate good spin, enough speed without it being too much speed, and a good feeling for the ball.

So, since you are good at the woodworking side of things and interested in making blades, you are going to have to start trying different blades and seeing what they feel like. And you are going to have to start trying the blades you make and seeing what they feel like as well. So you can start getting the blades you make to feel more like you would want them to feel for play.

Yes, I know, a more skilled player would know better what they would want to feel from a blade. Pick the brains of as many skilled players as you can. But you will start needing to feel the blades you make to see if what you are making is what is going to work for TT.

I am just being honest here. If you don't do some of that. You are just making beautiful furniture that looks like a table tennis blade. A real TT blade needs to poses certain playing characteristics. And, particularly, if what you are most interested in is using hardwoods and making the blades look beautiful, my guess is, they may play like the leg of an antique dresser.

Good luck. I really do hope this info is helpful.

TheWoodenBlade · Aug 30, 2017

UpSideDownCarl said:
My suggestion to you is to start trying as many different rackets as you can. Just ask anyone who has a racket to let you try it. When you try, focus on seeing how the wood feels under the rubber. What you feel. Things like, does the wood feel crisp on contact, or dull, does the blade feel like it grabs the ball or not. Does the ball feel like it stays on the blade a little bit longer, or does the blade shoot the ball out fast.

See if you can feel the top ply and the ply under it. With some blades, you can feel the ball sink in more before the ball gets projected out. With other blades the ball just gets propelled out as soon as the ball hits the blade surface.

One of the reason's for the popularity and success of Butterfly's ALC composite blades on the pro level is that the softness of the Arylate, and the speed added by the carbon, cause you to feel the ball sink into the top ply, stay there for a moment and then get projected out.

This extra dwell time, despite the hard Koto top ply makes it so you can get a lot of spin without losing speed from the blade. And that feeling of the ball sinking in and then that crisp response from the blade after the ball sinks in makes those blades work very well for TT.

With many wood ply constructions like:

Koto-Spruce-Ayous-Spruce-Koto

The spruce ply under the Koto ply does the same kind of thing because the spruce ply is naturally springy.

In a Clipper:

Limba-Ayous-Ayous-Ayous-Ayous-Ayous-Limba

They get a similar effect because the top ply is so thin, that even though it is soft, it lets the ball sink in to the ply under it more easily and you get that dwell time and crisp snap as the ball is catapulted out.

Or in a blade like the Korbel:

Limba-Limba-Ayous-Limba-Limba

Butterfly has used thicker limba plies to get an extra soft feeling from the blade that allows you to hold the ball on the blade surface for a long time and really get a lot more spin. And yet, the ply construction also makes it so that the Korbel is decently fast for a five ply all wood blade.

However, if, in a TT blade you use a hard top ply, hard middle plies and hard core, you are going to have a blade that projects the ball out too fast so you don't have enough time with the ball on the rubber to really generate decent spin. That kind of construction would make your offensive shots faster but with less spin and it would make your short game and touch shots much harder to control.

A player at a high level would be able to control a blade like what I just described. But they would not want to because it would not do what the player was looking for from a good blade. Which is enough dwell time to generate good spin, enough speed without it being too much speed, and a good feeling for the ball.

So, since you are good at the woodworking side of things and interested in making blades, you are going to have to start trying different blades and seeing what they feel like. And you are going to have to start trying the blades you make and seeing what they feel like as well. So you can start getting the blades you make to feel more like you would want them to feel for play.

Yes, I know, a more skilled player would know better what they would want to feel from a blade. Pick the brains of as many skilled players as you can. But you will start needing to feel the blades you make to see if what you are making is what is going to work for TT.

I am just being honest here. If you don't do some of that. You are just making beautiful furniture that looks like a table tennis blade. A real TT blade needs to poses certain playing characteristics. And, particularly, if what you are most interested in is using hardwoods and making the blades look beautiful, my guess is, they may play like the leg of an antique dresser.

Good luck. I really do hope this info is helpful.

I totally understand what you're saying. Thanks for sharing that information!

Getting differing veneer thicknesses can be hard if you're not resawing yourself. Most veneer come in 1/40" - 1/42". However, various woods are easy to obtain.

On my next blade, I'll give this a shot:
Koto-Spruce-Ayous-Spruce-Koto

Just so I know, the 85% wood rule applies only to the blade blank correct? I had an interest in creating a composite handle of a differing material, but was unaware if it would violate the rules.

BeGo · Aug 30, 2017

GinjaNinja said:
It's quite easy to create a heavy handle, just use heavier woods. It's harder to produce lighter handles when using higher quality hardwoods as you have to hollow them out. By selecting the right material you could add 10 or 15g of weight to an average 85g blade and also have some very attractive wood too such as Rosewood, ebony, olive etc

I wish this where this easy. You miss the important half of my quotes. [emoji23] [emoji23] [emoji23]

Remember what my main goal is,

"The centre of gravity is inside the handle with a pair of heavy rubbers on" [emoji6]

Sent from my i5E using Tapatalk

BeGo · Aug 30, 2017

TheWoodenBlade said:
I totally understand what you're saying. Thanks for sharing that information!

Getting differing veneer thicknesses can be hard if you're not resawing yourself. Most veneer come in 1/40" - 1/42". However, various woods are easy to obtain.

On my next blade, I'll give this a shot:
Koto-Spruce-Ayous-Spruce-Koto

Just so I know, the 85% wood rule applies only to the blade blank correct? I had an interest in creating a composite handle of a differing material, but was unaware if it would violate the rules.

I am rooting for You. [emoji7] [emoji7] [emoji7]

Sent from my i5E using Tapatalk

TheWoodenBlade · Aug 30, 2017

BeGo said:
I am rooting for You. [emoji7] [emoji7] [emoji7]

Sent from my i5E using Tapatalk

Thanks!!!

Whatever I do create, I'll gladly share how I created it!!

GinjaNinja · Aug 30, 2017

TheWoodenBlade said:
Exactly, but what I'm confused about here is that if one wanted to shift the center of gravity upward on a blade... why increase the weight of the handle? Wouldn't that shift the center of gravity down the blade?

The intangible aspect of personal preference comes into play here. I've found that many people hate a heavy handle and many people love it. Some don't care and I've had occasions where somebody is convinced a blade is heavier than another even though that is not the case. For me I don't mind a slightly heavier handle but I wouldn't want to go much about 95g in total. Also you need to match the handle weight to the blade. If the blade is heavy then you still need some weight in the handle otherwise it will feel even heavier. Unless of course if that's your preference!

I think it also depends on the standard of the player. Some of this is fine tuning and many people can't notice the difference. One player who tests a lot of my blades can notice very subtle changes and can accurately describe what they are. He's a very talented and experienced player which helps.

Again, a great hobby which is both fascinating and highly complex. We've not even discussed core woods, medial and outers. 5 ply? 7 ply? Direction of plies? blade shape? Thickness? Etc........

GinjaNinja · Aug 30, 2017

BeGo said:
I wish this where this easy. You miss the important half of my quotes. [emoji23] [emoji23] [emoji23]

Remember what my main goal is,

"The centre of gravity is inside the handle with a pair of heavy rubbers on" [emoji6]

Sent from my i5E using Tapatalk

Apologies, I see what you mean, that's a lot of weight to get in there to create the balance that low down. I might do some experimenting with my next blade see what happens.

UpSideDownCarl · Aug 30, 2017

GinjaNinja said:
The intangible aspect of personal preference comes into play here. I've found that many people hate a heavy handle and many people love it. Some don't care and I've had occasions where somebody is convinced a blade is heavier than another even though that is not the case. For me I don't mind a slightly heavier handle but I wouldn't want to go much about 95g in total. Also you need to match the handle weight to the blade. If the blade is heavy then you still need some weight in the handle otherwise it will feel even heavier. Unless of course if that's your preference!

I think it also depends on the standard of the player. Some of this is fine tuning and many people can't notice the difference. One player who tests a lot of my blades can notice very subtle changes and can accurately describe what they are. He's a very talented and experienced player which helps.

Again, a great hobby which is both fascinating and highly complex. We've not even discussed core woods, medial and outers. 5 ply? 7 ply? Direction of plies? blade shape? Thickness? Etc........

Excellent post.

And the important information about blade balance is, as you said, some people like head-heavy, some people like center balanced and some people like handle balanced.

With the COG more in the handle, a blade feels more solid and also feels a little lighter than it is. With a head heavy blade you have more mass in the head and bigger impact from a blade whose overall weight is not as high.

Blade companies present that hollowed handles make the blade more offensive. Some of that is marketing. But in the end, it is mostly about personal preference.

Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

UpSideDownCarl · Aug 30, 2017

BeGo said:
I wish this where this easy. You miss the important half of my quotes. [emoji23] [emoji23] [emoji23]

Remember what my main goal is,

"The centre of gravity is inside the handle with a pair of heavy rubbers on" [emoji6]

Sent from my i5E using Tapatalk

BeGo, a few pieces of info that would help you about bringing the COG towards the handle:

1) It is obviously much easier to do with an offensive blade because of the difference in head size. Doing this with a defensive blade with a head size like 166x155mm is much harder.
2) Add heavy rubbers to that and it is more of an uphill battle.
3) Handle balance would be less of an issue for a defensive player because your reset does not need to be as fast since the defensive shots are not offensive loops but slower chops which give you a completely different amount of time to reset. This is also why a defensive player can use a blade with a 166x155mm head size. That would be suicide for continuous looping even though ball contact would feel great as a result of the head size.

Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

UpSideDownCarl · Aug 30, 2017

TheWoodenBlade said:
I totally understand what you're saying. Thanks for sharing that information!

On my next blade, I'll give this a shot:
Koto-Spruce-Ayous-Spruce-Koto

A worthwhile thing for you to try would be to see if you can find people with these blades:

1) Butterfly Petr Korbel
2) Tibhar Stratus Power Wood
3) Stiga Allround Evolution
4) Stiga Offensive Classic

The first two have the same exact plies,

Limba-Limba-Ayous-Limba-Limba

And yet they feel very different.

The Allround Evolution is:

Limba-Ayous-Ayous-Ayous-Limba

And the Offensive Classic is:

Limba-Spruce-Ayous-Spruce-Limba

They are all CLASSIC blade constructions. And all blades will feel fairly different even though they all have a Limba top ply and an Ayous core.

When you try blades, do all the basic shots, pushing, counterhitting, driving, loop-driving, brush-looping, chopping. See what each blade feels like with each shot. Don't focus on your skill with the shots. Focus on how each blade feels.

Ideally, you would be trying each blade with the same rubbers.

When you test your own blades you should do the same thing. And you should just choose a default rubber that you use to try all your blades.

Having skilled players who know what they are feeling test your blades will be a good adjunct to help you. But for you to start knowing how different blades you make play, you have to start actively trying to feel different blades and examine and explore how they feel.

Otherwise you will be shooting in the dark.

The guys on TTDaily who do make blades are all decent level players so they know what they like and can feel when they make a blade that didn't work out how they hoped.

It is worth trying to develop the ability to feel how different blades play. You don't need to be very high level to begin to get a sense of that. Trust what your hand feels as a starting point.

Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

TheWoodenBlade · Aug 30, 2017

GinjaNinja said:
Apologies, I see what you mean, that's a lot of weight to get in there to create the balance that low down. I might do some experimenting with my next blade see what happens.

I'm confused, how much does the handle need to weigh exatly? I can think of a simple way to do this for sure.

GinjaNinja · Aug 30, 2017

UpSideDownCarl said:
Excellent post.

And the important information about blade balance is, as you said, some people like head-heavy, some people like center balanced and some people like handle balanced.

With the COG more in the handle, a blade feels more solid and also feels a little lighter than it is. With a head heavy blade you have more mass in the head and bigger impact from a blade whose overall weight is not as high.

Blade companies present that hollowed handles make the blade more offensive. Some of that is marketing. But in the end, it is mostly about personal preference.

Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

i also suspect manufacturers use certain materials due to cost. Harder woods are generally from much slower growing trees and therefore the cost is much higher. Check out the difference in price between balsa and ebony. True mahogany has similar properties (hardness, elasticity, weight) to koto but it isn't used anywhere near as much - it is also more expensive. Maybe I'm just cynical!

GinjaNinja · Aug 30, 2017

TheWoodenBlade said:
I'm confused, how much does the handle need to weigh exatly? I can think of a simple way to do this for sure.

Generally, I go for somewhere between 10 and 13g per handle, it depends on what the player prefers and the style of blade - offensive, all round etc. Obviously the handle thickeness too. The challenge can be when someone wants a hard heavy wood for the handle but also wants it to be light!

UpSideDownCarl · Aug 30, 2017

I always assumed that the woods used for handles by the big TT manufacturers had something to do with the idea that the softer more porous woods absorb sweat better.

But I really like the kind of wood OSP uses for their handles. Not too hard so it does absorb sweat. But it also does not feel like a disposable handle.

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CSBV · Aug 30, 2017

what about harder wood types in the handle making the blade a little stiffer, especially in the layer closest to the blade itself

bobpuls · Aug 30, 2017

UpSideDownCarl said:
I always assumed that the woods used for handles by the big TT manufacturers had something to do with the idea that the softer more porous woods absorb sweat better.

But I really like the kind of wood OSP uses for their handles. Not too hard so it does absorb sweat. But it also does not feel like a disposable handle.

Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

Actually you are not far.....

But they use Special kind of wood which is porous and it is good in absorbing color pigment for color treatment ... So basically they are. :
Birch.
Aspen
Ash......
There are also others but this three tipes are most used.
And this is extremely hard to find... But one manufacturer did once a mistake and give this info out...
For the color treatment I did research with exact results how it is done.... And it is not easy to do at home.... Sometimes I will explain.

UpSideDownCarl · Aug 30, 2017

bobpuls said:
Actually you are not far.....
But they use Special kind of wood which is porous and it is good in absorbing color pigment for color treatment ... So basically they are. :
Birch.
Aspen
Ash......
There are also others but this three tipes are most used.
And this is extremely hard to find... But one manufacturer did once a mistake and give this info out...
For the color treatment I did research with exact results how it is done.... And it is not easy to do at home.... Sometimes I will explain.

Interesting. Great info bobpuls. I always like the way natural wood tones look in the handle. So, the coloring process seems a waste of time to me. Within a month of solid play, the coolest colored handle looks worn and faded from the sweat and the action of play.

Whereas, the natural wood tones end up looking better with age. [emoji2]

But it is interesting that the woods that allow for easier dying because of how porous they are, also help absorb the moisture from your sweat. And that, functionally, that is good for the handle to have that characteristic.

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GinjaNinja · Aug 30, 2017

CSBV said:
what about harder wood types in the handle making the blade a little stiffer, especially in the layer closest to the blade itself

I can't say for sure but the thickness of any wood on the handle will mean there is no flex there. Others may have a different insight but I doubt it would have any impact on the overall flex of the blade. I have made blades with hard wood handles and tons of flex.

GinjaNinja · Aug 30, 2017

bobpuls said:
Actually you are not far.....
But they use Special kind of wood which is porous and it is good in absorbing color pigment for color treatment ... So basically they are. :
Birch.
Aspen
Ash......
There are also others but this three tipes are most used.
And this is extremely hard to find... But one manufacturer did once a mistake and give this info out...
For the color treatment I did research with exact results how it is done.... And it is not easy to do at home.... Sometimes I will explain.

Interesting. Both birch and ash are quite hard and heavy woods but aspen is really light and similar properties to ayous.

BeGo · Aug 30, 2017

UpSideDownCarl said:
BeGo, a few pieces of info that would help you about bringing the COG towards the handle:

1) It is obviously much easier to do with an offensive blade because of the difference in head size. Doing this with a defensive blade with a head size like 166x155mm is much harder.
2) Add heavy rubbers to that and it is more of an uphill battle.
3) Handle balance would be less of an issue for a defensive player because your reset does not need to be as fast since the defensive shots are not offensive loops but slower chops which give you a completely different amount of time to reset. This is also why a defensive player can use a blade with a 166x155mm head size. That would be suicide for continuous looping even though ball contact would feel great as a result of the head size.

Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

Aah, that #3, thanks Carl!

Well, in my case, back then,

I choose to be defender cause I "guessed" that working on my legs would be more beneficial than working on my hands AKA reaction times. [emoji28]

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