Butterfly Tiago Apolonia ZLC or Butterfly Viscaria (Normal and Fish Scale Surface)

I think the Apolonia is better for that. I have the Liu Shiwen, Apolonia used it before the release of his signature model, so i think they're simmilar, dispite having zlf instead of zlc so the LSW it's a bit slower. However, i've played with a friend's Timo Boll Alc with T05 on both sides, and the speed difference isn't that much.
Sooo i think the Viscaria should be a faster than Apolonia and probably harder, with less feel.
The Liu Shiwen it's also a good option for playing near the table, has good control, good for looping, blocking, etc, but it has a different feel than Viscaria.

If money is not a problem give it a go szlc. You can also watch Dans review in ttd

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Spinonspin said:

Hello,


I have DHS Hurricane 3 Neo Provincial Blue Sponge 2,15 39 on forehand and Butterfly Tenergy 05 on backhand.
Which blade is the best for attackers close to the table, rotation and stronger topspin, but also with good control and defense?
Which is the difference between Butterfly Tiago Apolonia ZLC (Innerforce ZLC) and Butterfly Viscaria (Normal and Fish Scale Surface)?
Which blade you recommend to me, Apolonia ZLC or Viscaria, or you have someone else from Butterfly and Stiga?

Best regards

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The viscaria is a safe option if you're going for a carbon blade. It is what you can call a 'medium' carbon, not very fast nor very slow.


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Viscaria. Don't worry about fishscale.

Both blades are fine. Either one would work. No need to waste money on SZLC.

Spinonspin said:

Which is the difference between Viscaria and Viscaria Fish Scale Surface?

Money isn't a problem, I just want a good blade for me.

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The fish scale pattern is just the result of a different cut of the same wood. The cut is called quarter sawn. There are different theories on it.

Here is what one site that explains quarter sawing says: "Quarter sawn wood has an amazing straight grain pattern that lends itself to design." So, basically the main thing there is that it looks good.

But it is a little more stable and resistant to warping. The downside of quarter sawing is that it is harder to cut the wood that way, you get less from the same amount of wood therefor it ends up costing more to purchase quarter sawn wood.

Does it play any different? Not really. Of course lots of people will disagree with me. If it does play differently, it is not by enough so that you would really notice the difference, and it is hard to say if it would play better or worse.

But there is no question that it looks better.

Maybe this helps support Carl's point.


This link shows a few other cuts: http://www.shadbolt.co.uk/types-of-cut.aspx

I do not agree with carl .... it has different bound , but i think is more noticeable when this type of cut is used in core and not top ply.

bobpuls said:

I do not agree with carl .... it has different bound , but i think is more noticeable when this type of cut is used in core and not top ply.

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I haven't noticed any difference in play between the different cuts either but I think that's what Carl is saying too - I think his point is that any difference is so small that the player wouldn't notice it, but I am sure he will clarify in case I've misread.

As far as close to table and spin oriented play is involved, I think ALC blades are better suited than zlc blades. I’m using szlc and I’m considering in buying the Zhang Jike alc. I’ve been reading that it’s basically a Timo Boll alc/viscaria with more speed and spin, but then again I can’t really be sure it’s a valid statement given that people’s styles of play differ and whatnot. However, I’m a speed-oriented player, but I want to improve on my spin-oriented game and I think that using alc would be the best choice for me, and in my case, Zhang Jike alc. I haven’t found any other blade that matches what the Zhang Jike alc has, and for me it makes the transition from szlc to alc easier I guess, given I’m used to the “weird handle” people talk about the Zhang Jike series.

GinjaNinja said:

I haven't noticed any difference in play between the different cuts either but I think that's what Carl is saying too - I think his point is that any difference is so small that the player wouldn't notice it, but I am sure he will clarify in case I've misread.

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Yep. That is correct.

I did say that quarter sawn plies are more resistant to warping. That is something.

But since we all feel things differently, for one person, a Viscaria with a quarter sawn top ply (“fish scales”) may feel a tiny bit better and for another it might feel worse. So the actual judgement on feel is down to personal taste, and for many, it could also be effected by the placebo effect.

But the fish scale pattern definitely looks prettier. There is no question about that.

Interesting to try quarter sawn for core. And I could actually see that having a bigger impact since the quarter sawn plies are more stress resistant. So them working better for the core makes sense.

But that same quality may make them perform not as well for a top ply, where, the top ply being thinner and more responsive to the impact of the ball often gives a better ability to feel the ball.


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Clu37 said:

As far as close to table and spin oriented play is involved, I think ALC blades are better suited than zlc blades. I’m using szlc and I’m considering in buying the Zhang Jike alc. I’ve been reading that it’s basically a Timo Boll alc/viscaria with more speed and spin, but then again I can’t really be sure it’s a valid statement given that people’s styles of play differ and whatnot. However, I’m a speed-oriented player, but I want to improve on my spin-oriented game and I think that using alc would be the best choice for me, and in my case, Zhang Jike alc. I haven’t found any other blade that matches what the Zhang Jike alc has, and for me it makes the transition from szlc to alc easier I guess, given I’m used to the “weird handle” people talk about the Zhang Jike series.

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I think some of this needs a closer look:

If you are looking at an ALC blade with the same wood plies as a ZLC blade, like TB ALC vs TB ZLC, then your assumptions are accurate and useful.

However, a blade with Koto-ALC like TB ALC, ZJK ALC and Viscaria, compared to a Limba-Limba-ZLC Blade like the Apolonia or the InnerForce ZLC, then your assumptions are a bit off.

An InnerForce ZLC will be about the same speed as one of the ALC blades mentioned (a little slower close to the table, a little faster as you move back). But having the softer Limba top ply with two plies of wood (Limba-Limba) before the composite ply would make it so that it was a little easier to generate spin with the InnerForce blade.

It would also make short game easier and you would get less of the effect from the ZLC on short game and when you take a fuller swing the composite layer will kick in on the InnerForce blades. This is why they will be a hair slower with less catapult close to the table and the speed will increase on bigger swings when your impact reaches the composite layer.

All that being said, the Koto ALC blades and the InnerForce ZLC blades are really equally good and just have slightly different strengths and weaknesses. And, hence my first post, about how either would be good.

==

As far as comparing Viscaria/TB ALC with ZJK ALC, I could be wrong. But I think that may be backwards. Perhaps Baal can weigh in on that subject since he has played with many versions of each of those blades over the past few years and is probably in a better position to give a useful comparison than anyone else on the forum.


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Yeah, I guess you can say I was comparing my SZLC with the ALC blade of the same series, as I’m looking forward to buying that blade. Hopefully someone has information about the Zhang Jike ALC and how it plays compared to SZLC; I’ve been looking for resources regarding how the alc blade plays compared to szlc and I haven’t gotten much...

ZJK ALC is softer feeling and a little slower than ZJK sZLC but weight balance is similar. Both are designed for more or less the same kind of player. I like them both. One is half the price of the other, though. I prefer ALC because I've played with those for 11+ years. So other people might prefer the sZLC.

As for fish scale, I think it is not as important as weight and how it feels in your hand. With that said, my favorite blade is a fish scale.

I like blades with the composite layer closer to the surface.

I still think Viscaria is close to a perfect blade.

Baal said:

ZJK ALC is softer feeling and a little slower than ZJK sZLC but weight balance is similar. Both are designed for more or less the same kind of player. I like them both. One is half the price of the other, though. I prefer ALC because I've played with those for 11+ years. So other people might prefer the sZLC.

As for fish scale, I think it is not as important as weight and how it feels in your hand. With that said, my favorite blade is a fish scale.

I like blades with the composite layer closer to the surface.

I still think Viscaria is close to a perfect blade.

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Thanks Baal. How would you compare the ZJK ALC with the Viscaria.

Clu37 said:

....and I’m considering in buying the Zhang Jike alc. I’ve been reading that it’s basically a Timo Boll alc/viscaria with more speed and spin....

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Does Clu37's research sound accurate?

Except for the part about more speed and spin. Handle is slightly different. Notable that ZJK doesn't use it.