Are styles conforming and hurting the sport?

One reason is that the CNT players are dominant because Europe has not produced any really outstanding new player for the last 10 years. Think about it. Samsonov and Boll are still tops and they have been there since the late nineties.
......OK, maybe Dimitrij, but no one else that I can think of?

Think the plastic has something to do with it Matt?

There are different ways of looking at this. Some of these trends in how people play have been underway for a long time. Just watch how Gatien played. Korbel with his BH flick, and on and on. Even a Kreanga BH rip from off the table is something you see top players doing quite often now (maybe not as spectacularly as Kreanga, but maybe more effectively). Reverse pendulum serves. Once something is shown to be possible, people will figure out for themselves how to do it. Then the next thing you know, 10-year old kids are doing it.

New balls probably have something to do with it, two significant increases in size, first from 37.5 on average, to 39.5 on average, and now to 40.5 on average, with corresponding increases in weight. I very much think this is the exact opposite of what was intended by people making decisions, and if so, it says that rules changes often have unintended consequences, and people should stop messing with the sport for awhile.

The other thing is that players imitate the best players. Kong Linghui looked like a European player in the time of Waldner, Persson, Primorac et al. And then Wang Liqin came along, and Ma Long (especially) and a lot of other CNT look like an updated version of him. (And that is about the time we started getting all sorts of threads about the "Chinese loop").

A lot of players are going to study these top guys and end up playing the way they do. Completely original players don't come around too often, the ones we see end up getting copied if they win a lot (Wang Hao for example). There is always a trend to homogenize styles in sports. After all, if you could figure how to play like Ma Long, wouldn't you do it?

It happens in music too.

Although there are some really great rallies that are produced by the top players, the one style of play I think is a little unhealthy for the sport, as is the Chinese dominance over the sport. The consistency of the style seen in top level play and the way it smothers the other styles of play makes it so that the other styles might as well not exist.

Although that was an exaggeration, it does seem that table tennis is heading in this direction, given the way it has changed over time. At top level play, the other styles seem much less relevant, and the rallies seem to be the same ones over and over. Even the choppers have to be part-time attackers.

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So, how can this be fixed, or should it be fixed at all?

Topics like this come up very often in video games. The most efficient, popular, and powerful strategy and style of play is usually called 'the meta' or 'the metagame'.

Normally in games, the game developers are not happy when one aspect and style of play is clearly stronger than everything else. The developers implement balance changes to fix these problems, like making the other strategies slightly better (called a buff)or decreasing the efficacy of the meta (called a nerf) or both.

If done well, some players who played the meta might be sad, but mostly everyone else is happy with the more diverse meta.

However, if done badly (which most of the time, it is done badly), either nothing will change if nothing much is done, or too much is done. If it's the latter, a lot of players will be angry, angry that the Gods of their game killed the style of play that they spent so much time on, forcing them to take on a different approach or quit the game.

***************

In table tennis, the ones that decide the rules of the game (and consequently, the metagame), is ITTF and the laws of physics. We cannot change the laws of physics (sadly), and the laws of physics makes topspin a much more viable shot, due to the Magnus effect. So this gives a huge advantage to attackers. Along with rule changes that ITTF has made over time, the sport has evolved, and the players have evolved with it, and the players found that two-winged attackers performed the best.

So what does that mean for players like us and for spectators?

For players like us, it forces us to play into and around the meta if we want to improve our game. We all learn how to loop because looping is so great (which makes it meta). We all learn to block loops, since looping is the meta. We all learn to give short balls, since looping is the meta. Better players learn to attack short balls, since short balls is in the meta. They also have to learn to counterloop, since looping is the meta. Some people even learn to chop, to SPECIFICALLY counter the loop, since looping is the meta. And so on.

The fact that we HAVE to learn all of this is quite discouraging. It is basically the ONLY way to get better and beat other people. And what sucks is that, as players, this is what we are forced to play against, all the time. No other real option or choice.

As for spectators, most don't really know what's going on, but if they see the ball going back and forth, it's great for them.


Changes in the meta would be really interesting for players like us, but for spectators, it might not be fascinating to them.

************

So what can be done? I'm pretty sure that ITTF is sure to make looping stay in the game forever now, since it's cool to watch for the spectators. Also, if they make looping harder to do or make looping less effective (by making rule changes to the ball/rubber/net/etc), I'm sure tons of people will be mad, since they've poured so many hours into topspinning, including myself.

So since nerfing the meta basically out of the picture, the only other option is the make the other strategies better. I'm not really sure how this can be done though. Somebody would have to devise high level techniques or a new strategy that can counter the meta.

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FINALLY: Are there advantages to keeping the status quo?

In fact, yes. If everyone is playing the same way, it is very easy to determine who is better than who. It is very easy to measure skill when everyone plays the same way.

Imagine it was not this way. Imagine different style of play have come to fruition. Different players play in different ways. Some players might not play so well against this style or that style. Some players play this style better. And so on.
It is very possible that a rock-paper-scissors meta will emerge: one style beats another, which beats the third, which beats the first. At that point, whenever someone wins or loses, it will be 'because of the style'. And so because it is less about skill now and more about match-up, it kind of sucks for the players.
Now this actually isn't all theory, because this actually does happen in video games. Certain styles will do better against one another, and the dominant ones will rise to the top. Either one of the styles emerges supreme and annihilates the others, or the multiple styles keep one another in balance.

*************

So long story short: There are advantages and disadvantages for a sport to have a dominant style. Same with having multiple viable styles.

So, to sum it up with video game examples, would we want uniformity like this: http://i.imgur.com/tMfeyjY.png

or rock-paper-scissors like this: https://clashroyalearena.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/slight-advantage-clash-royale-2.png

EDIT: for more clarity

The elements of this discussion have been going on for a decade or two. It was already going in that direction then. ITTF sure helped it go that way.

If the 38 Celluloid or even a 38 plastic ball would become the standard, spin would be easier to impart and there would be more variance of spin... that would help out allround and defensive styles in their effectiveness, might help some close to table hitters too.

It is just a feeling and assumption ITTF will never authorize and go back to a 38 mm ball, even if it is a plastic one.

That is the one and only suggestion I could provide, other than some vulgar and physically impossible, if not uncomfortable, suggestion to ITTF rule pushing officials.

Another suggestion would be for pro players to collective tell ITTF do perform one or more of the afore mentioned vulgar thing(s) and form their own pro league with reasonable bat and rubber TT laws... until that happens, good luck.

Fun to think about it though.

I think the larger plastic ball is bad for both pro and amature player health... I have never seen so many shoulder injuries in my life. I still advocate for a smaller ball with more spin. That will give more variation and open it up for both the styles that use variation, since there will be more possibility for variation. The increased spin will give attackers a possibility to attack stronger with control, but they also have to read a larger range of spin.

Matt Hetherington said:

I wrote a new blog post about my thoughts and some thoughts which were shared by me in discussion with some table tennis legends while I was in Germany earlier this year.

What I write about is the way the game is changing and styles are being phased out, players are conforming towards one style of play - the two winged shakehand attacking player. Even pace variation and touch that we used to see are now not anywhere near as common.

Is it making table tennis less entertaining to watch? What do you guys think? See my item below.

http://www.mhtabletennis.com/2017/09/is-conformity-of-styles-hurting-sport.html

Click to expand...

Off course, ill join the,

"Conforming style? Nooo!!!" Faction [emoji24] [emoji24] [emoji24]

On technical size, I still not convinced that spinnier ball can be made at same cost, I means,

how to make spinnier ball? Skeletonize the ball construction while reducing the weight? [emoji16]

Sent from my i5E using Tapatalk

BeGo said:

Off course, ill join the,

"Conforming style? Nooo!!!" Faction [emoji24] [emoji24] [emoji24]

On technical size, I still not convinced that spinnier ball can be made at same cost, I means,

how to make spinnier ball? Skeletonize the ball construction while reducing the weight? [emoji16]

Sent from my i5E using Tapatalk

Click to expand...

“So difficult it is to make the ball smaller. Think harder you must.”

Der_Echte said:

The elements of this discussion have been going on for a decade or two. It was already going in that direction then. ITTF sure helped it go that way.

If the 38 Celluloid or even a 38 plastic ball would become the standard, spin would be easier to impart and there would be more variance of spin... that would help out allround and defensive styles in their effectiveness, might help some close to table hitters too.

It is just a feeling and assumption ITTF will never authorize and go back to a 38 mm ball, even if it is a plastic one.

That is the one and only suggestion I could provide, other than some vulgar and physically impossible, if not uncomfortable, suggestion to ITTF rule pushing officials.

Click to expand...

!!!!

Or even 37mm plastic if it cannot be celluloid!

ITTF should make a retro tournament, invitating the top players to play with 38 mm ball and 21 point sets. Preferably with round robin for everyone to see more matches.

songdavid98 said:

So, how can this be fixed, or should it be fixed at all?

Normally in games, the game developers are not happy when one aspect and style of play is clearly stronger than everything else. The developers implement balance changes to fix these problems, like making the other strategies slightly better (called a buff)or decreasing the efficacy of the meta (called a nerf) or both.

Click to expand...

It seems to me that this is exactly what ITTF was trying to do when they (1) banned speed glue, (2) banned booster, (3) increased ball size from 37.5 to 39.5 and then from 39.5 to 40.5.

Why did they do this? ITTF is not just one person so various people probably supported the idea for different reasons.

Some argued that the game was getting too fast and that the ball would be easier to see on TV and easier to understand (for people who don't actually care about TT). Undoubtedly some though it would prevent the emergence of a single dominant style. Perhaps some in ITTF felt like these rule changes might reduce Chinese dominance (Sharara hinted at this). So they made rules changes, which would place certain physical limits on the sport, "meta" to anything the players can control.

As to the real reasons behind ITTF's decisions vs. what they said were the reasons, bear in mind that even if celluloid was a problematic material, 40+ balls are still larger and heavier than 40 mm. Boosters, and indeed speed glues sold circa 2008 are not toxic. Improved video feeds were all that was necessary to make the ball visible. Of course, maybe there was some corruption involved in some of these decisions.

But if the ITTF was trying to change the way the sport is played to slow it down (which at first thought most people would have predicted would help defenders) it looks like they failed to stop the trends and some would say these changes actually accelerated them.

Making rules changes in TT will almost always have unintended consequences.

Rules changes always favor the country that has the largest number of players and the deepest infrastructure because they will be most likely on statistical reasons alone to be able to find the best players who are best suited for whatever change to the game you come conceive! Whatever changes you make, there is someone already playing in China, on a provincial team or CNT who will be very well suited for it, whereas in, say, France, or Germany, the greater likelihood is that they are going to have to take time to develop someone. There are a lot of reasons for Chinese dominance in last 17 years, not just one. But it is interesting to note that it got much more noticeable a couple years after the first increase in ball size, and their dominance has increased ever since then, irrespective of several quite significant changes.

So if someone thinks that raising the net height will solve problems, don't be so sure. I think it is a horrible idea.

To be honest, though, I am ok with the way things are now. Let's just take some time and see how things evolve. Catch our breath a bit.

ajtatosmano2 said:

ITTF should make a retro tournament, invitating the top players to play with 38 mm ball and 21 point sets. Preferably with round robin for everyone to see more matches.

Click to expand...

I think you would find this to not be very enjoyable to watch.

Baal said:

I think you would find this to not be very enjoyable to watch.

Click to expand...

And why? It would be for fun, nothing serious. No rallies with the current equipment? Why do you think it would be bad?

I understood it was just for fun. The reason is a few months ago someone had a 38 mm Nittaku ball at our club (he had found it in one of his old bags) and some of us tried to play with it. After all this time with 40 and 40+ balls, all of our strokes were too big and nothing we did still worked well. Even Jimmy Butler's shots were missing the table by a meter.

I think even with pro players the points would not be very good and it wouldn't make for great viewing.

Baal said:

I understood it was just for fun. The reason is a few months ago someone had a 38 mm Nittaku ball at our club (he had found it in one of his old bags) and some of us tried to play with it. After all this time with 40 and 40+ balls, all of our strokes were too big and nothing we did still worked well. Even Jimmy Butler's shots were missing the table by a meter.

I think even with pro players the points would not be very good and it wouldn't make for great viewing.

Click to expand...

I see. But pro players probably would adjust to it soon and an old ball might lose from it's spin (wearing, ageing), while it's speed stays the same.
Update: I mean 1-3 days by soon

songdavid98 said:

...

As for spectators, most don't really know what's going on, but if they the ball going back and forth, it's great for them.

...

Click to expand...

Very interesting analysis and a very apt comparison to video games, never thought of that angle before.

Now - I would argue that TT is actually NOT a spectator sport, and a lot of its troubles can be linked to that. In the countries where it is a niche sport at best (e.g. USA), spectators = fellow tournament players plus may be occasional friends and relatives, mostly kid parents. In other more established countries (Germany, Japan, China) I still see empty seats at tournament finals which would be unthinkable at soccer, basketball, baseball games of similar importance.

I suspect TT's main problem is that its action area is 'small' - played on the court that is tiny with hard to see ball. Table games do not fill arenas. Imagine if eSports did not project their action on the jumbotron or you could not see hands of the poker players during match broadcast on TV.

I'm afraid once you lost ability to attract spectators, in person or on TV, everything else follows: sponsorships, endorsements, TV contracts, prize money, ability for pros to make a living etc.

pgpg said:

Very interesting analysis and a very apt comparison to video games, never thought of that angle before.

Now - I would argue that TT is actually NOT a spectator sport, and a lot of its troubles can be linked to that. In the countries where it is a niche sport at best (e.g. USA), spectators = fellow tournament players plus may be occasional friends and relatives, mostly kid parents. In other more established countries (Germany, Japan, China) I still see empty seats at tournament finals which would be unthinkable at soccer, basketball, baseball games of similar importance.

I suspect TT's main problem is that its action area is 'small' - played on the court that is tiny with hard to see ball. Table games do not fill arenas. Imagine if eSports did not project their auction on the jumbotron or you could not see hands of the poker players during match broadcast on TV.

I'm afraid once you lost ability to attract spectators, in person or on TV, everything else follows: sponsorships, endorsements, TV contracts, prize money, ability for pros to make a living etc.

Click to expand...

The biggest potential is in TV for table tennis. Few people will travel without understanding TT. But when people just run across the TV channels to find something interesting, they might stop and watch a little TT. It's just comfortable.
I don't have a TV myself, but when I sit before one and searching for something interesting, I always see a tennis match going on. Tennis is simple. Everyone can feel how precise was that shot, how much they run up and down. Tennis has spin too, but it's entertaining even without seeing it. Watching TT without knowing about the spin? No way. We can see how damn spinny was that push, but what the one time spectator sees is that the player missed again a stupid short ball.
That's why the commentators say 'Unbelievable spin! How low was that that ball! That was an extremely difficult shot!' and so on... TT players often complain about that the commentators only repeat what we have already seen, but it's not for us.
ITTF's first priority in marketing should be increasing the quality of the broadcast. Buying new cameras, proper equipment for broadcasting in HD, CHANGING THAT SH*TTY CAMERA ANGLE...

Good points all.

Actually, even good amateur players cannot fully appreciate the spin pro players put on the ball until they actually play with them.

I have had the privilege of playing with pro and former pro players many times. It still amazes me. When they push, it is insanely heavy. Their serves are never quite what they appear to be. At first when they loop I would like like a fool seeing a loop for the first time until I adjusted my racket angles to deal with the spin, which was heavier than I was accustomed to seeing. And I have the feeling that they always seem to know where my ball is going with plenty of time for them to get to the ball at a leisurely pace. And even after I adjusted my racket angles, their loops always have a penetration and impact that is just noticeably more forceful than what you are used to. And of course, they rarely miss, and when they really unload, I can't even touch the ball.

Watch these same guys playing on a video and it looks like normal table tennis and you think, "yeah I can do that". Watch them live and it takes your breath away.

But as you say, the video angle could probably be improved somewhat. At least it is worth experimenting with it.