Are styles conforming and hurting the sport?

actually, i think the most boring stylishly universal era is the celuloid 40mm ball era. why?

the 38mm ball era had many variations as matt has stated. someone like waldner combined loops, blocks and punches in his attacking game.

in the 40mm ball era it was all about the loop. loop loop loop. nobody punched any more. players were counter looping so much they practically stopped blocking. coaches in europe started teaching kids how to loop too early. variation was lost. kids learnt how to loop before they could move their feet properly. occasional flashy points went up, consistency went down.

now with the 40+ poly ball with decreased spin, we are starting to see blocks and punches again. good!

There weren't many European penhold(or short pimples) players back in 38mm era. So it's kind of like they are complaining because CN/JP/KR/TW is not playing with penhold grip anymore.

I also feel that there are enough variance amongst shakehand loopers but it seems less so because Top 50 rankings are currently dominated by less familier Asian players. Even in Japan styles of Mizutani/Niwa/Ooshima is distinctively different.

Is it good for the game? I'm not sure.
But watching 21 points game with endless repeat of aces and 3rd ball kill gets tiring pretty quick. Match highlight was good though due to rare long rally with faster ball speed and more spin.

OhWell said:

“So difficult it is to make the ball smaller. Think harder you must.”

Click to expand...

Dear Oh Well,

No, making the ball smaller without reducing weight is a bad idea, the ball shall be even faster. It spinier, but less veering in the air due to less air drag. Sorry, Oh Well. [emoji28]

I am talking about reducing the ball mass without reducing the ball size. That make the ball affected more by atmosphere drag, and easier to spin due to momentum and less rubber penetration.[emoji6]


Ok, time for personal rant,

Today, I just play with provincial level players in my city.

I test 2 combi,

Butterfly Defence Alpha + Donic Slice CD 1.5 mm + LKT Stranger with Kokutaku BLutenkirsche Japan 1.1 mm

Blade Pemula Super Slow Special + DHS H3 Control Version 2.0 mm + Yinhe Neptune with Kokutaku BLutenkirsche Japan 1.5 mm

After being butchered 3 - 1 straight 5 games as predicted, now I am more convinced,

1st, What kill us defenders is not that the ball is less spinney, but differences between spinney topspin and back spin became smaller that my opponent just safely counter loop everything, Yet,

2nd. The ball to heavy that it penetrate my rubber too fast for me to spin it. My Slice useless for looping now, I need something like H3 to loop properly

Back then, I just swat the ball and it stopped by air drag and drop on opponent table. Now, all of them became long ball.

No incentive for me to chop using LP, not enough spin to return. I better chop using my Slice than my Stranger or Neptune.

Chopping using Slice became much easier than using Stranger. My Stranger now only useful at long range.

LP became useless for service return, cause too small spin to feed.

Sent from my T1X Plus using Tapatalk

izra said:

actually, i think the most boring stylishly universal era is the celuloid 40mm ball era. why?

the 38mm ball era had many variations as matt has stated. someone like waldner combined loops, blocks and punches in his attacking game.

in the 40mm ball era it was all about the loop. loop loop loop. nobody punched any more. players were counter looping so much they practically stopped blocking. coaches in europe started teaching kids how to loop too early. variation was lost. kids learnt how to loop before they could move their feet properly. occasional flashy points went up, consistency went down.

now with the 40+ poly ball with decreased spin, we are starting to see blocks and punches again. good!

Click to expand...

I have wanted to actually say part of this myself, but was afraid I would be shouted down. On the other hand, it is not like I disliked TT in the 40mm celluloid era, there have been lots of incredible matches and achievements. One of my favorites was 2003 WTTCs in Paris. But some of the matches we have seen in the last year have been amazing, like the FZD Ma Long final at WTTC.

Also, if you actually go back now and watch entire matches in the 38 mm era, you will no longer glorify it. Not everyone was Waldner, there were days when even Waldner didn't care much, and there were a lot of short points with stupid unforced errors. The problem is that a lot of people these days only see highlight videos from that era and seem to think it was always like that.

My stipulation about current era is that I am talking mainly about events with ABS balls.

The other thing I would say is that should start teaching kids how to hit topspin right from the start, there is no "too early" for that.

Exhibit A. Can you imagine a harder WTTC semifinal to watch since this one?

Baal said:

The other thing is that players imitate the best players. Kong Linghui looked like a European player in the time of Waldner, Persson, Primorac et al. And then Wang Liqin came along, and Ma Long (especially) and a lot of other CNT look like an updated version of him. (And that is about the time we started getting all sorts of threads about the "Chinese loop").

A lot of players are going to study these top guys and end up playing the way they do. Completely original players don't come around too often, the ones we see end up getting copied if they win a lot (Wang Hao for example). There is always a trend to homogenize styles in sports. After all, if you could figure how to play like Ma Long, wouldn't you do it?

It happens in music too.

Click to expand...

Yes. Don't underestimate YouTube.

Some really great points here.

I like the one about how the punch is now back compared to 40mm era. That's something I hadn't thought about.

Then NL posts that video which does remind me of so many short rallies & errors off of hidden serves back in the 38mm days. I do think we let some of our nostalgia get in the way.

Table tennis, just like pretty much every other professional sport you can think of changes and evolves over time. Players take lessons or tips they've seen from the prior generation and adapt it and improve upon it. Change is good and I don't think we should fear it in TT.

Think about basketball now from the 80s. Back then it was rough fouls, build around the center old-school style of play. Now it's spread the court 3 & D popularized by the Warriors.

Football use to be smashmouth, large pads, 3 yards and a cloud of dust. Now it's spread everybody out and run shotgun 90% of the time spread offense.

Both of the sports I've mentioned have had numerous rule changes over the years in attempts to make the games more enjoyable to watch and pleasing to the everyday viewer. I suppose you could argue that the ITTF has only done the same thing..... Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go take a bath for what looks like my take on defending the ITTF. Yuck.

The only nostalgya I feel is not to the 38 ball, but to the age I was then
Now I find the new set ups and balls more exciting and much more challenging, and I think that the new situation is good for TT progress and players developement. Time is a river, game is changing, and new styles will come too.

I am glad that there are people who agree with me that the sport is not heading to a steaming heap.

There has been a lot of that kind of posting at various forums. The complaints include: They are killing spin! The rallies are short! There are no blockers! They are dumbing down the game! The 38 mm era was greatest because of Waldner! Umpires not calling illegal serves is killing table tennis!

One thing I like about TTD is that people love the professional sport. There are lots of videos, people follow every match of every tournament, and people are incredibly knowledgeable about every up and coming player -- more than me!!! So maybe less complaining here (also I am guessing that most posters are younger) and a lot of interesting information about professional techniques, tactics, and trends.

At some other forums I believe there is somewhat less interest in the pro sport, indeed one of the major English language forums basically never talks about the pro game ever, rather they are concerned with what is the best long pips, and features endless EJ threads extolling the virtues of the slowest possible equipment. All of these forums have interesting stuff, but each one has some of their own characteristics that I have noticed over the years.

This is where I come to read and talk about the state of art of the sport, which is sadly far beyond the way I play it.

Baal said:

I have wanted to actually say part of this myself, but was afraid I would be shouted down. On the other hand, it is not like I disliked TT in the 40mm celluloid era, there have been lots of incredible matches and achievements. One of my favorites was 2003 WTTCs in Paris. But some of the matches we have seen in the last year have been amazing, like the FZD Ma Long final at WTTC.

Also, if you actually go back now and watch entire matches in the 38 mm era, you will no longer glorify it. Not everyone was Waldner, there were days when even Waldner didn't care much, and there were a lot of short points with stupid unforced errors. The problem is that a lot of people these days only see highlight videos from that era and seem to think it was always like that.

My stipulation about current era is that I am talking mainly about events with ABS balls.

The other thing I would say is that should start teaching kids how to hit topspin right from the start, there is no "too early" for that.

Click to expand...

i didn't say the 38mm era was more interesting to watch, but there WERE more styles. the 40mm era was super interesting, but it had less styles. watching boll vs mizutani or ma long vs xu xin was incredible, but as a table tennis lover and a coach i would like our sport to enable more than just one style of play.

from experience i strongly disagree with the "never too early" thing.

izra said:

i didn't say the 38mm era was more interesting to watch, but there WERE more styles. the 40mm era was super interesting, but it had less styles. watching boll vs mizutani or ma long vs xu xin was incredible, but as a table tennis lover and a coach i would like our sport to enable more than just one style of play.

from experience i strongly disagree with the "never too early" thing.

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That lights up a new point. I would never mention Mizutani, Boll, Ma Long and XX together. For me, they have completely different styles. I know that you're aware of their differences, just for me they are different enough to call them different styles.
Which makes me sad is the lack of choppers. Ma Te, JSH, Muramatsu Yuto and Ruwen Filus. I can't say any more on the men's side, who appeared in the recent times. Gionis went black after WTTC, Pattantyus Adam even for a longer time. Hou Yingchao too.
I think if clubs would attempt to teach more kids to various styles, there would be more variation in general (sound obvious, but I want to say it's not the new balls fault in total). Skills matter, not the style, even if two winged attack with double inverted has an edge over the others.

In my club there is a special chopper coach, but his role is to skill trainees to deal with choppers rather then to build choppers.
Watching choppers may be spectacular, but for me playing with choppers is a burden. Having them is a must, but my egoistic sense prays ITTF to find a rool to dismiss them

izra said:

i didn't say the 38mm era was more interesting to watch, but there WERE more styles. the 40mm era was super interesting, but it had less styles. watching boll vs mizutani or ma long vs xu xin was incredible, but as a table tennis lover and a coach i would like our sport to enable more than just one style of play.

from experience i strongly disagree with the "never too early" thing.

Click to expand...

My experience is watching how quite little kids are taught in China but we will simply have to disagree on this.

Although I disagree that there are less variation in style within shakehand offensive players, I do agree that there are less variation in general. We certainly don't see as any penhold or short/long pimples players out there.

40mm is certainly responsible for killing C-pen short pimples (which I will forever moan) but regulation changes have always been gravitated towards agressive loopers which is understandable when you experience playing against choppers with same colored rubbers or blockers with long long anti pimples.

Hah, the club got a clone player for training, good show.