Slower, soft rubber a good idea for a beginner?

perham · Oct 4, 2017

Hello everyone,

I'm quite a beginner at the game and I'm trying to improve my strokes. Currently I'm using Yasaka Carbon 3D Max blade with Donic Barracuda 2.0 for backhand and Donic Barracuda 2.2 for forehand. I have noticed that my bat is too offensive for my level. Namely, it is quite difficult for me to improve my ball placement. Also, doing top-spins are possible with less effort, so I tend to do lazy top-spin shots (only using my shoulder and arm rather than the whole body). I think the offensive bat is affecting my style in a negative way. So I thought to change rubbers to something softer, and with more control, so that I can practice my shots without relying on the speed of the bat too much. Any thoughts if this is a good idea? If yes, what would you suggest as a good forehand/backhand rubber pair?

NextLevel · Oct 4, 2017

Both the rubbers and the blade have issues, but if I had to pick one over the other, the rubbers are fine, the blade is the issue.

OhWell · Oct 4, 2017

Your blade is the only part of your setup that strikes me as (much) too fast for a beginner. The barracuda should work much better on a slower blade. Try a 5 ply Limba-Ayous blade before your ditch the barracuda! (Eg: Stiga Allround Classic/Evo, or Xiom Offensive S.)

Soft sponge rubbers aren’t easier to control: softer sponges get engaged at lower speed, which can actually make them harder to control, and can definitely encourage lazy technique - since you don’t need to move your racket fast to engage the sponge. In practice this means at low velocity soft rubbers tend to be more spinny and bouncy, but tend to be much slower and less spinny at higher velocity. For learning it’s the opposite of what you want IMO.

NextLevel · Oct 4, 2017

OhWell said:
Your blade is the only part of your setup that strikes me as (much) too fast for a beginner. The barracuda should work much better on a slower blade. Try a 5 ply Limba-Ayous blade before your ditch the barracuda! (Eg: Stiga Allround Classic/Evo, or Xiom Offensive S.)

Soft sponge rubbers aren’t easier to control: softer sponges get engaged at lower speed, which can actually make them harder to control, and can definitely encourage lazy technique - since you don’t need to move your racket fast to engage the sponge. In practice this means at low velocity soft rubbers tend to be more spinny and bouncy, but tend to be much slower and less spinny at higher velocity. For learning it’s the opposite of what you want IMO.

I agree with this - the reason why Baracuda has issues is that for a first rubber, it is very spinny and spin-sensitive and inherently non-linear. But it is not the end of the world. The speed is actually good for a beginner, though the strokes that may work may be less technically sound because of how spinny Baracuda is by itself - he will get great arc with relatively little effort.

Simas · Oct 4, 2017

I can only partially agree to what is said about soft rubbers. In general softer rubbers are slower and easier to control, but in this case the rubber has speed glue effect built in and the non linearity of it can be a problem. Also as it is said, the rubber can be too spinny to control the incoming spin. If you want to change them, safe bet could be all the classical rubbers like Mark V, Sriver...

Astorix · Oct 4, 2017

Tibhar vari spin

perham · Oct 4, 2017

Thanks for your quick responses. So far, what I understand is that I need (i) a slower blade, (ii) a more linear, less spinny rubber. I have played with some of my friends' blades, and I can say that in case of allround blades with allround rubbers, the drop in speed is really significant for me. For example, I've played with Stiga allround classic/Xiom Vega on both sides and I really had trouble with top spin away from the table. I have a Chinese Friendship C-5 blade that I still have no rubbers for. It should kinda play like a all- blade. Maybe I can use Barracuda on it to see if it works? I'll keep you updated when I experiment with few of these setups. I think I kinda spoiled myself by using pro-equipment early on! LOL

OhWell · Oct 4, 2017

perham said:
Thanks for your quick responses. So far, what I understand is that I need (i) a slower blade, (ii) a more linear, less spinny rubber. I have played with some of my friends' blades, and I can say that in case of allround blades with allround rubbers, the drop in speed is really significant for me. For example, I've played with Stiga allround classic/Xiom Vega on both sides and I really had trouble with top spin away from the table. I have a Chinese Friendship C-5 blade that I still have no rubbers for. It should kinda play like a all- blade. Maybe I can use Barracuda on it to see if it works? I'll keep you updated when I experiment with few of these setups. I think I kinda spoiled myself by using pro-equipment early on! LOL

Hey, quick note: unless you are an equipment expert like some of the folks on this forum, it's usually a good idea to avoid changing both rubbers and blade at the same time when you are looking for a new setup. Otherwise you have no reference point to help you tell what difference the new blade and/or rubbers is having.

I don't know much about the C5 - besides the info written on the blade by 729. It may not be the blade you want at the end of the day but it should certainly give you a feel for how big of a difference the blade can make keeping your current rubbers. Also (this is somewhat obvious but we all get overenthusiastic at times), in case the C5 is smaller than the 3D: if you intend to go on to try other blades, it's probably a good idea to avoid cutting the rubbers to the C5 size.

UpSideDownCarl · Oct 4, 2017

Maybe try something at around the speed of one of these blades:

Xiom Offensive S
Stiga Offensive Classic
Butterfly Primorac Off-
Nittaku Acoustic
Nittaku Violin
Stiga Allround Evolution
Tibhar Stratus Power Wood
Butterfly Petr Korbel

Those are in no particular order.

But something you should understand, if you played with Allround Classic for a year without using other setups, your technique would develop around it. And those long distance shots would feel more normal. Then if you tried your current setup, it would feel like a rocket ship: very fast.

What you were describing about the slower setup feeling too slow is just based on what you are used to. But a slower setup will help your technique improve.

That being said, any of the blades I listed should be an okay speed.

Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

OhWell · Oct 4, 2017

Simas said:
I can only partially agree to what is said about soft rubbers. In general softer rubbers are slower and easier to control, but in this case the rubber has speed glue effect built in and the non linearity of it can be a problem. Also as it is said, the rubber can be too spinny to control the incoming spin. If you want to change them, safe bet could be all the classical rubbers like Mark V, Sriver...

Hey, at this point a lot turns on what we are calling "soft" (and "hard"). I was thinking 41ish degrees and below on shore C.

Good reference on the effect of sponge hardness (and other general features of rubbers): https://thoughtsontabletennis.wordpress.com/2015/03/09/introduction-to-table-tennis-chemistry/

langel · Oct 5, 2017

perham said:
For example, I've played with Stiga allround classic/Xiom Vega on both sides and I really had trouble with top spin away from the table.

Stiga All is much slower and much different from your current blade in all aspects. And what Vegas were on it? If Europe or Elite you really should expect what you have described, because such setup will not work at longer distance at all.

But Xiom Solo 7 + Vega Euro ->Vega Pro->Vega Asia /from softer to harder/
or other similar of different brands would help you develope and transfer to faster setups later.

man_iii · Oct 12, 2017

Yasaka 3D Max with Rakza7 rubbers should work at any level from beginner to advanced

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pujoki · Oct 12, 2017

The YEO blade with mark V rubbers combo is a great beginner paddle. The rubbers are medium hardness, not too bouncy, and not to reactive to spin. This paddle will give you good control attacking and defending, but you will have to put in some effort in your shots because the paddle won't do all the work for you which is good for developing technique. Once you feel this paddle is a little too slow for you, you can change the rubbers and keep the blade. This combo is available at TT11 for around 72 USD.

NextLevel · Oct 12, 2017

perham said:
Thanks for your quick responses. So far, what I understand is that I need (i) a slower blade, (ii) a more linear, less spinny rubber. I have played with some of my friends' blades, and I can say that in case of allround blades with allround rubbers, the drop in speed is really significant for me. For example, I've played with Stiga allround classic/Xiom Vega on both sides and I really had trouble with top spin away from the table. I have a Chinese Friendship C-5 blade that I still have no rubbers for. It should kinda play like a all- blade. Maybe I can use Barracuda on it to see if it works? I'll keep you updated when I experiment with few of these setups. I think I kinda spoiled myself by using pro-equipment early on! LOL

A pity Carl didn't read you the riot act but he is probably busy these days. It is worth experiencing and fighting a little with the slower speed of all wood blades until you know how a good offensive stroke should feel. It's hard to learn that feeling with a fast blade because all the strokes feel the same and what you are looking for is harder to feel. When you learn it you can make choices. But until you do downgrade the speed of the blade. Slower blades give you more vibrations and when you loop properly, you tend to reduce them. Since these vibrations are already dampened on high level blades, even bad technique feels the same. Some good players never even go to the high level blades as they just like the feedback from slower blades.

prince121090 · Oct 13, 2017

I recommend you should you Flyatt rubber on your backhand

Der_Echte · Oct 13, 2017

As much as I have been anti-pundit my TT life, I would generally agree with pundit thinking.

Go for middle of the road allround OFF class speed/spin blade/rubbers with a slant towards control and spin production.

That means something along the lines of an ALL, ALL+ or maybe OFF- blade and control rubbers.

Just gearing down the blade to the relatively inexpensive allround evolution is a big step in the direction of middle ground.

As Carl said, the technique will develop around the middle stuff given enough time and effective correction.

perham · Oct 31, 2017

Thanks again for your wonderful guidance everyone. This has definitely helped me. I’ll update you on the situation so far: I used the C-5 blade for a while with Yinhe Mercury II on both sides. I can already tell you that my game has improved a lot, since now I’m able to loop over backspin with relative ease either with forehand or backhand. The only problem is that sometimes I feel like the bat can’t lift the balls that are below table level. That was definitely easier with the old setup. Also I noticed that if I play against a strong opponent, I get far more returns on my loops since they are not as fast as before; but that was already expected. I’ll keep playing with the current setup for a while, but I think C-5 is a bit too slow. It might be a good idea to switch to a Off- blade. I was thinking to use something like Palio CAT or Sanwei carbon lines since they’re quite cheap, and let’s me experience with different styles. I’m curious to know what you think about this. Should I stick to European blades even if they’re a bit more expensive? Or is it a good idea to try out Chinese blades?

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ttmonster · Oct 31, 2017

If you are beginner , I would suggest don't get bit by the EJ virus , get a decent OFF- Blade , all wood blade and slower rubbers linear rubbers and play with that setup for atleast an year ( depends on how frequently you play ) .... in most cases the technique is what is lacking if you are consistently missing certain balls. Strongly advise to get a few lessons from a coach , that is divert the money you are spending on equipment to getting lessons ... it will help you much more in the longer run ... if you are a beginner and you frequently change setups it might take time to groove the basic strokes in , because you might end up developing bad habits that you will fail to identify since you will always be left confused whether its you or the equipment , and in general we tend to blame anything else than ourselves

perham said:
Thanks again for your wonderful guidance everyone. This has definitely helped me. I’ll update you on the situation so far: I used the C-5 blade for a while with Yinhe Mercury II on both sides. I can already tell you that my game has improved a lot, since now I’m able to loop over backspin with relative ease either with forehand or backhand. The only problem is that sometimes I feel like the bat can’t lift the balls that are below table level. That was definitely easier with the old setup. Also I noticed that if I play against a strong opponent, I get far more returns on my loops since they are not as fast as before; but that was already expected. I’ll keep playing with the current setup for a while, but I think C-5 is a bit too slow. It might be a good idea to switch to a Off- blade. I was thinking to use something like Palio CAT or Sanwei carbon lines since they’re quite cheap, and let’s me experience with different styles. I’m curious to know what you think about this. Should I stick to European blades even if they’re a bit more expensive? Or is it a good idea to try out Chinese blades?

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EmRatThich · Nov 1, 2017

My opinion: As a beginner, you should focus on the "feeling" and learn how to impact the spin to the ball.
You can choose any rubber out there, hardness about 45 to 50 degree on the forehand, 43 to 47 degree on the backhand.
Don't choose too thick, or bouncy rubber, around 2.0mm to 2.1mm is OK.
Don't choose too soft rubber, not good to learn basic techniques.

perham · Nov 1, 2017

So I took the advice, and didn’t buy anything new not to become an EJ. But something interesting happened. I switched the rubbers on C-5 with the rubbers from the old setup, and as soon as l stuck those Baracudas on C-5, it became way faster. It’s definitely a Off- now. Which brings me to the question: how much of the speed is from the blade and how much is from the rubber? It seems to me that now I have a slower, more vibrating version of my previous setup without a lot of change in the familiar feeling of the old setup. This is despite the fact that C-5 is 5ply wood and 3d max is a carbon blade. I’m a little bit confused, as I always thought blade contributes more to the feeling than the rubber.

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Slower, soft rubber a good idea for a beginner?

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