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  1. WorkerBee is offline
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    #1

    Fair handicap for men and women?

    For men and women to play against each other in the same tournament, what should the standard handicap be? My guess is 5.

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    #2
    I think up till the very top levels, the handicap should be 0. Physique makes a real difference only at that kind of level. We do have a few higher level women players in my club even though most of them are not as good as the men but that's because they have been playing for a lesser amount of time and don't train that often.

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    #3
    I am not sure what scenario you are talking about. Or at what level of play you are talking about. Like, are you talking about at a tournament at a club? At a bar? The top 10 in the world men vs the top 10 woman?

    But regardless of the scenario, the lower level player is the one who should get the handicap. So if the female player is the higher level player and the male player is the lower level player, then the male player would get the handicap points.

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    #4
    Quote Originally Posted by WorkerBee
    For men and women to play against each other in the same tournament, what should the standard handicap be? My guess is 5.
    Don't the men and the women have ratings? Over here, I think women playing a separate women only competition exclusively has stopped 30 or 40 years ago. There's still a women only competion, but women can and usually do participate in what used to be the men's and is now a mixed competition. I regularly encounter female players there that also play in the women's national competition (second and first division players).

    Anyway, the ladies have a rating and when playing tournaments that rating determines at which level, in which class, a player will participate. Competitions and tournaments exist in which players of varying ratings compete, and in these usually a conversion table is used granting a number of points to the lower-ranked player, depending on the difference in ranking. You might get 2 points headstart if you're rating is 55-99 less, 3 points for 100-135, 4 for 136-174 and so on.

    I don't think a standard handicap makes sense. There's quite a number of girls out there that will trounce me utterly without breaking a sweat. The mere suggestion of offering a handicap to such strong players would be quite insulting, and absurd to boot.

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    #5
    In Germany you can't compare womens' and mens' ratings. Women have zero chance against a male player with approximately the same rating. I don't think the "men vs women" comparison in sports makes sense at all. It is nonsense for most of the sports in general, not only for table tennis.

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    #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Xylit
    In Germany you can't compare womens' and mens' ratings. Women have zero chance against a male player with approximately the same rating. I don't think the "men vs women" comparison in sports makes sense at all. It is nonsense for most of the sports in general, not only for table tennis.
    A woman with a 1900 TTR will have no chance against a man with a TTR of 1900? Is that what you mean? Or did you mean their RANKING? rather than their rating?


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    #7
    Depends where you are. In my area, the TTR ratings are definitely comparable.

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    #8
    We've seen the result of men vs women matches. Ding Ning defeated Yan Sheng, Li Xiaoxia defeated Ren Hao, Ariel Hsing defeated Jimmy Butler, Jiaqi Zheng defeated Timothy Wang. Women play a different style than men and unless the male player is willing to make adjustments for it he will most likely be defeated.

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    #9
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl
    A woman with a 1900 TTR will have no chance against a man with a TTR of 1900? Is that what you mean? Or did you mean their RANKING? rather than their rating?
    I mean their rating, like I have said. 1900 TTR against each other, woman won't stand a chance.

    Quote Originally Posted by anchorschmidt
    Depends where you are. In my area, the TTR ratings are definitely comparable.
    Even women playing in Bundesliga with a TTR of 2200 can struggle against men with a TTR below 2000. Maybe the difference between men and women gets bigger the higher the level gets as table tennis gets more physical there. But even in amateur classes you can't compare the two sexes. If there are tournaments with both in one draw the women usually will participate in the class with men one or two leagues below them. And they still can't win.

    I am from Baden-Württemberg, women are now allowed to participate in men teams additionally (still in women teams as well). They are seeded according to their TTR. Not a single woman from my club has won a game so far, they lost against men with 100 TTR points less and even worse.


    Quote Originally Posted by countrybread
    We've seen the result of men vs women matches. Ding Ning defeated Yan Sheng, Li Xiaoxia defeated Ren Hao, Ariel Hsing defeated Jimmy Butler, Jiaqi Zheng defeated Timothy Wang. Women play a different style than men and unless the male player is willing to make adjustments for it he will most likely be defeated.
    I was talking about men and women with equal ratings against each other. Not woman vs man with a few hundred points less. It only makes sense to compare the best female player to one of the best male players and not to a random pips player. Moreover, rumors say that the male players there had to imitate styles of female players to prepare the female CNT players for OG.

    Comparing male and female players with equal rating does not make sense at all!

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    #10

    Fair handicap for men and women?

    Well, I don’t know, but if the rating system is even half useful, 1900 should mean as close to the same thing regardless of your gender.

    In US, a USATT rating of 2500 means the same thing regardless of your gender.

    Everyone has good and bad days. Everyone has days when they play above or below their level. But a woman with a USATT rating of 2500 should have a 50/50 chance of winning when facing a man with the same rating.

    Part of why this should be the case is, you should have to earn your rating—whatever your rating is—by playing and winning enough of the time to be at that rating level.

    However, WR #1-5 in the men’s division would not have the same USA rating as WR# 1-5 in the women’s division.

    The top 5 men would be probably earn a rating of somewhere between 2850 and 2950 and the top 5 women would probably have a rating of 2650-2800.

    In truth, because TT is so much more about skill and technique and so much less about force and power, the top women are closer to the top men in TT than in any other sport I can think of.

    For instance, in tennis, a decently high level, college male, who isn’t even in the top 300 in the world, has enough power to spin the ball heavy and hit with pace. A top women really have to choose pace without as much spin. Because their other option is spin, without as much pace. And that will not work against a good player.

    So, a good college male can take care of a top woman in tennis. And would really have no chance against a man in the top 300 in the world.

    Whereas, in TT, I think the top woman can play even with men with a world ranking around 100.

    And if a rating system is actually working, 1900 or 2200 should not be a different 1900 for men than for women.

    But since I have seen interesting disparities in how TTR translates to USATT-R where 1900 can mean a large range in the USATT system, perhaps the way the rating systems work is just different.

    There are advantages and flaws to any system used to rate players. But if the TRR system is working how it should, a player who earns a 2200 rating should be able to play pretty even with any other player with that same rating. If not, their rating should be lower.

    If you have to play to earn a rating, to get to 2200, you should have at least a 50/50 record against other players of that rating.


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    Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 10-08-2017 at 10:53 PM.
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    #11
    I think the context of the original question is flawed.

    Women only have a disadvantage at the very top level of play. As for competitions lower than that, a handicap isn't really necessary.

    As for the other people talking about rating on this thread, a lot of the competitors in the US play in events where both men and women can enter in. Because of that, ratings are a clear indication of player level. A 1900 woman has a fair chance against a 1900 man because both played their way up to that rating, playing against both men and women.

    Only in very large tournaments in the US are there separate events for gender.

    Differences in player level when it comes to gender would only emerge if women and men keep playing in separate events. At that point, it is possible that 1900 for women is not the same for 1900 for men. However, that situation doesn't really occur in the US. It may be quite possible in other parts of the world though.

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    #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Xylit

    I was talking about men and women with equal ratings against each other. Not woman vs man with a few hundred points less. It only makes sense to compare the best female player to one of the best male players and not to a random pips player. Moreover, rumors say that the male players there had to imitate styles of female players to prepare the female CNT players for OG.

    Comparing male and female players with equal rating does not make sense at all!
    That is rather sexist and your comment is entirely wrong, at least for the US players. Ariel Hsing was rated 122 points less in her usatt rating when she beat jimmy butler...2499 to 2621. She also beat Michael landers in 2013 who was 67 points higher rated than her.

    Here is an example from 2011 of a 14 year of US olympian Lily Zhang, rated 2520 at the time beating a 2709 usatt rated Chinese provincial male player: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=905JuBBnZBc

    im sure with any effort I could find numerous other examples. It seems to me the German rating system must have flaws if it is so skewed where equal rated players aren’t actually equal, because until you get to the very highest levels, gender is irrelevant in my opinion.

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    Last edited by cfagyal; 10-09-2017 at 01:02 AM.

  13. UpSideDownCarl is online now
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    #13
    David Song, you have made a great point. If a lot of the play for women in Germany is in tournaments that are women only, then their rating may not reflect the same thing as the men's rating. I am happy not to know.
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    #14
    Quote Originally Posted by anchorschmidt
    Depends where you are. In my area, the TTR ratings are definitely comparable.
    Same here. The same ratings, earned the same way by competing against the same players.

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    #15
    Quote Originally Posted by WorkerBee
    For men and women to play against each other in the same tournament, what should the standard handicap be? My guess is 5.
    My female friend can give you 5 handicap points and she still wins.

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    #16
    Lily Zhang almost beat a male player who ranked a bit higher than her.


    Handicap points my behind! What a ridiculous OP!

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    #18
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl
    ...because TT is so much more about skill and technique and so much less about force and power, the top women are closer to the top men in TT than in any other sport I can think of... I think the top woman can play even with men with a world ranking around 100.
    One of my favorite things about table tennis is the high skill to power ratio that you're talking about. Not many other sports where you can see a big athletic 30 year old get schooled by someone half his size and twice his age (or half his age). At the higher levels, though, power and athleticism play bigger roles. Interesting question whether the top woman (Ding Ning) could really compete evenly with the number 100 man (at the moment Tomas Konecny). She's great, but that seems like a pretty tall order.

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    Last edited by Andy44; 10-09-2017 at 07:35 PM.

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    #19
    I would imagine that at the highest level, top 20 in the world men vs women it wouldn't even be close. However someone like Ding Ning i'm sure would fancy her chances against men all the way up to top 100. I don't think that there are many other sports were this would be the case.

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    #20
    Tropical: The match before that one she beat someone rated over 200 points higher than her, a chinese provincial male player. I linked the video in a previous comment I made. She was 14 at the time also...

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