Too much sidespin on forehand topspins

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Of course, I am aware of that. It is the same in most technical sports, getting the body to work together as a unit and correct timing is usually the hard part.
 
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says Spin and more spin.
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Adding sidespin subtracts power from velocity and topspin, and the sidespin component of a shot doesn't help at all to lift a heavy push; wrong axis of force for lifting. You make it harder for yourself when you add sidespin. Sometimes it's worth it, sometimes not. If the only forehand you can hit is a hook, I think it's a good investment of practice time to figure out how to unhook it.

I wanted to pick this back up.

I know I actually covered this when I was talking about spin avoidance before this post was made. But I want to revisit the subject.

If there is heavy backspin on the ball, and you tried to hit straight topspin with no sidespin, you would be going against the spin directly and it would make looping that backspin much harder.

If you contact the outside of the ball you would be contacting closer to the axis of rotation and the spin would have much less of an effect on you so you could actually loop forward much more easily and get much more power on the ball.

The exception to this would be if there was the kind of side-backspin that would be heaviest when you contact the outside of the ball. [Reverse pendulum side/backspin from a righty to a righty.]

And, if you received this sidespin and wanted to utilize spin avoidance, you would want to contact the inside of the ball for a fade loop.

So, from that standpoint, I think the statement quoted may be a little off.

Mechanics also determine that, if you contact the ball a little in front of you, a little before the ball comes in line with your body, you can apply more force into the ball and you can utilize the force of your moving forward more effectively.

If you waited till the ball was in line with (as far back as) your body, you would have much less leverage to power into the ball. You can do it. But you won’t be able to apply as much force into your stroke.

When you swing with a FH and your racket is about 8-12 inches closer to the table (or net) than your body, your arm will be at approximately a 35-45° angle to the table which will mean you HAVE TO contact the outside of the ball to use that leverage.

So contacting the outside of the ball, a little bit on the outside of the ball, is where you can apply the most force into the ball from your stroke.

And that technically means that where you will get the most power behind your stroke is where you would contact the ball for some natural sidespin on your loop.

The same actually applies in baseball even though, in baseball, you would not be compensating for incoming spin or trying to spin the ball yourself. In baseball, if you hit the ball a little out in front of you and contact the outside of the ball, you will “pull” the ball (for a righty, pulling the ball would mean hitting towards left field. That would be equivalent to a crosscourt shot in TT or tennis.) Pulling the ball gives you much more power than hitting straight away or to the “opposite field” (an equivalent angle to hitting from the BH corner with the FH to the opponent’s BH corner).

So, the same physics apply to baseball even though they are not spinning the ball or avoiding spin. Contacting a little to the outside of the ball gives the swing the most power into the ball.

The reason has to do with the circular nature of the stroke which has to do with human anatomy and the fact that the major joints at play are circular too. The curved ball and socket joints of the shoulder, elbow and wrist, combined with the circular motion of core rotation (the much less curved facet joints of spine rotating) combine to make a very efficient circular, swinging motion that allows you to apply maximum force into the ball when the ball is a little in front of you.

However, if what you are talking about is when someone makes a slow, spinny sidespin loop that has more sidespin than forward momentum, that has to do with more of the energy of the stroke going into spin than speed. And that wouldn’t be that different than a slow spinny loop that has a high arc.

So it isn’t something that only has to do with sidespin.

But either a slow spinning, sidespin loop or a slow spinning, high arcing topspin loop can be pretty useful vs backspin, and, on certain occaissions either might be a good tactic. But I would usually prefer the slow, spinny, high arcing topspin better for that scenario because you can use the backspin to add to your topspin since you are going against the spin where it is heaviest.


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I wanted to pick this back up.

I know I actually covered this when I was talking about spin avoidance before this post was made. But I want to revisit the subject.

If there is heavy backspin on the ball, and you tried to hit straight topspin with no sidespin, you would be going against the spin directly and it would make looping that backspin much harder.

If you contact the outside of the ball you would be contacting closer to the axis of rotation and the spin would have much less of an effect on you so you could actually loop forward much more easily and get much more power on the ball.

The exception to this would be if there was the kind of side-backspin that would be heaviest when you contact the outside of the ball. [Reverse pendulum side/backspin from a righty to a righty.]

And, if you received this sidespin and wanted to utilize spin avoidance, you would want to contact the inside of the ball for a fade loop.

So, from that standpoint, I think the statement quoted may be a little off.

Mechanics also determine that, if you contact the ball a little in front of you, a little before the ball comes in line with your body, you can apply more force into the ball and you can utilize the force of your moving forward more effectively.

If you waited till the ball was in line with (as far back as) your body, you would have much less leverage to power into the ball. You can do it. But you won’t be able to apply as much force into your stroke.

When you swing with a FH and your racket is about 8-12 inches closer to the table (or net) than your body, your arm will be at approximately a 35-45° angle to the table which will mean you HAVE TO contact the outside of the ball to use that leverage.

So contacting the outside of the ball, a little bit on the outside of the ball, is where you can apply the most force into the ball from your stroke.

And that technically means that where you will get the most power behind your stroke is where you would contact the ball for some natural sidespin on your loop.

The same actually applies in baseball even though, in baseball, you would not be spinning the ball. In baseball, if you hit the ball a little out in front of you and contact the outside of the ball, you will “pull” the ball (for a righty, pulling the ball would mean hitting towards left field. That would be equivalent to a crosscourt shot in TT or tennis.) Pulling the ball gives you much more power than hitting straight away or to the “opposite field” (an equivalent angle to hitting from the BH corner with the FH to the opponent’s BH corner).

So, the same physics apply to baseball even though they are not spinning the ball or avoiding spin.

The reason has to do with the circular nature of the stroke which has to do with human anatomy and the fact that the major joints at play are circular too.

However, if what you are talking about is when someone makes a slow, spinny sidespin loop that has more sidespin than forward momentum, that has to do with more of the energy of the stroke going into spin than speed. And that wouldn’t be that different than a slow spinny loop that has a high arc.

So it isn’t something that only has to do with sidespin.


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

Interesting points about spin avoidance. My statement was wrong or at least incomplete. While the force component that imparts sidespin does nothing to lift the ball, hitting the ball on the side closer to the axis of rotation should make it easier to impart topspin and so to lift and land the return. Not sure I agree that you end up with more momentum on the ball this way but I’ll have to think about that one.


Worth noting that hitting the ball on the side is not quite the same as hitting sidespin. It’s true that hitting the ball on the side tends to create some sidespin. Even a baseball bat does this, as when a fly ball starts out looking like a home run but curves foul. A cross court loop will tend to have a certain amount of sidespin from the ordinary mechanics of the shot that you discuss. But hitting sidespin, especially hitting “too much” sidespin, which the OP was asking about, I understood to mean exaggerated sidespin from more lateral brushing contact as with a hook. This will subtract something from speed and topspin, and might have accounted for the problems he described.


One other thing. Not sure exactly what you mean by contacting the ball before it comes in line with your body. That’s something I try to avoid. As a former tennis player, I have a hard time not taking the ball early, and one of the most frequent things my coach says to me is, “Wait for it.” With typical footwork my forehand power zone is a few inches in front of my back shoulder, and I’d guess that for most people that’s where maximum bat acceleration takes place. ... Just looked at your self-hitting video again and I think that’s roughly what you mean.
 
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Thanks for clarifying. That makes sense. The slow, spinny sidespin that imparts exaggerated sidespin on the ball as opposed to contacting the outside of the ball without trying to hook and generating some natural sidespin.

The hook with exaggerated sidespin would be something you could do as a tactic occasionally. But you don't really want to be stuck with only that shot.

And, yes, contacting the ball a little in front of you; a little before the ball would be in line with your body. So, if you were a foot behind the table, a little before the ball was a foot behind the table. Not too much in front of you. Not too early. But when your racket has gone a little forward of your shoulder. Not too late, not too early.

But, of course, it would also depend on the shot. If you were going from BH corner to BH corner with FH and hitting a slight fade, I think you might contact a little later. To go cross court you might contact a hair earlier. But, thinking about it, I have to be honest, I don't even really know what I do if I alternate from one to the other. I just adjust to the ball a little differently and set my stance a little differently.
 
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Of course, I am aware of that. It is the same in most technical sports, getting the body to work together as a unit and correct timing is usually the hard part.

So trying hard and racket moving fast are not entirely connected if the technique has all the joints working for you efficiently.

Would like to add one comment to this: it is a common mistake amongst adults working on their technique to believe that you develop powerful technique by swinging at the ball hard all the time. You don't learn to swing at the ball hard or to time the ball better by swinging at it hard, especially when learning technique. Swinging at the ball hard early in your learning process will ensure that you use plenty of the wrong muscles and develop lots of muscular tension.

You always start slowly, sometimes isolating body parts to ensure that they are doing the right movement, then trying to figure out what the correct activation sequence is. It may takes hundreds of thousands of strokes to get something similar to what you are trying to do out on the table. But going for power is always a guarantee that your technique will break down because you haven't developed the neural pathways to do the stroke with the proper muscle sets, yet you want to do this before you have developed them.

IT's why people learn to walk before they run. Adult learners like to refuse to believe they need to walk. But they need to.

The other thing is that in table tennis, at the amateur level, you need to play at multiple timings. IT is common to see someone have fun when they get certain spins, but when they play someone who is using slow equipment or changing spins, they are so tense and start missing the ball because they cannot adapt their timing to the ball. Lots of time spent swinging at different speeds in addition to practicing against such players will make your life much easier.
 
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Also watch his hips, his legs, his feet.

Note, when he uses his body, his feet turn to accommodate the hip rotation. You actually need this to keep your knees safe.

This part should be be highlighted to more and more people.
 
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Would like to add one comment to this:

This part should be be highlighted to more and more people.

Suga D, Where is that darn SUPER LIKE button you've been talking about!

These are two great posts.

Just a note about the second post. The reason I actually put that in, whocarez, is that, in all the videos, that is one thing that needs to be addressed. Even in the ones where you are running side to side to pick up the next ball, when you stroke, you plant your feet and it is like you are trying not to move them. The get pulled into moving when your hips have turned too far to stay where they started. But they are trying to stay in the position they started. And then they get dragged on that semi-slippery floor when your hips have turned too far for them to stay planted.

When they show the isolations of Korbel's feet in the Korbel video, see if you can see what he is doing and how the ball of the foot stays grounded but the feet turn with the rotation of the hips because his heels are not grounded.

NextLevel, can you find that video of Korbel where they show him doing shadow strokes and completely isolate his feet. It would actually be helpful to whocarez to see that.

In a sense, this foot movement and freedom should just happen if your weight is forward enough to pull your heels a tiny bit off the floor.

 
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I think they took that video off YouTube, Carl. I looked In my email history but that link no longer works.

Frick. It gave the best view of the feet I have ever seen. Oh well, you can see it the view where they show the feet in this Korbel video.

His form is just so good. Touching every base of what would make complete FH technique in such a balanced way. Not too much or too little elbow, shoulder, rotation, weight transfer....flawless feet, wrist.

He is really like the textbook for what a FH should be.

But you can see the feet well enough in this ML video I posted. It is just more complicated because the drill is showing something more than basic. But it is there:


And then there is Primorac. This video gives a lot of good looks at the feet. And he is one of the best to look at for how the relaxed whip of the wrist would fit in with all the other details.


Still, in that Korbel video, he is simply doing the stroke and resetting without moving. So you don’t need to try and isolate the feet during the stroke from what the feet are doing in moving from spot to spot.

Embarrassed as I am, perhaps I will make a video of me doing shadow strokes where the camera angle only shows the feet.

Wish I could have had the feet in the video I made yesterday. But when you are setting up a phone camera in a place where you would not normally, you have to use the props available to you.

Maybe I will make the video in a suit and tie. [emoji2]


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You may be right about the feet. One possibility is to stay more on the balls of my feet when performing the strokes and keeping the weight more forward. I sometimes focus on this when practicing the shuffle step, but there are many things to focus on ;)
 
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You may be right about the feet. One possibility is to stay more on the balls of my feet when performing the strokes and keeping the weight more forward. I sometimes focus on this when practicing the shuffle step, but there are many things to focus on ;)

That is part of why I hinted but did not focus on it at first.

A lot of times the information about the feet is that you want to lift your heels. I think that can be confusing. But if you shift your weight forward the enough, your heels will be lifted a little from the weight being shifted forward.

The hard part of this, especially for someone like me, who is over 50 years old, is that, my body has an instinctual reaction to protect me from shifting my weight so far forward. The muscle memory that keeps my weight more centered front to back is hard to change. It would take a lot of training while focusing on that and nothing else.

And there are other things that are holding your stroke back.

But, ultimately, your knees staying safe may be more important than the quality of your stroke.

In the end, there is just so much you can work on.


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