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  1. Thomas Jeffcott is offline
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    #1

    China National Team All Losing! Is This Because of Liu Guoliang?

    First Ma Long is defeated at the World Cup! Now Fan Zhendong, Zhang Jike, Lin Gaoyuan, Xu Xin and Wu Yang are all thrashed at the German Open! Is this all down to Liu Guoliang? What's going on?!
    Last edited by Thomas Jeffcott; 11-12-2017 at 12:23 PM.

  2. yoass is offline
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    #2

    China National Team Dropping Like Flies! Is This Because of Liu Guoliang?

    I do consider it possible that this is an exit strategy, implementing punishment in the longer terms to players barely touchable while on top. This goes for ML, XX, FZD.

    ZJK has been waning for a long time, ever since there really wasn’t anything left to win maybe.

    And yes, LGL’s sudden removal and subsequent absence must have made a significant impact anyway, even without the political need for retribution against the disobedients.
    Last edited by yoass; 11-11-2017 at 10:05 PM.

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    #3
    Ma Long and Fan Zhendong are a level above however the rest of cnt nowadays are 50/50 with rest of world

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    #4
    LGL could really reach the players mentally. When a player struggled he knew exactly what was wrong with him and what needs to change, how to give him confidence again. It is because LGL was with them the whole time during their pro career. Now is the time the rest of the world has to attack.

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    #5
    Wherein lies the pride in winning over someone who isn't at his best? If I would beat Ma Long if he was sitting in a wheelchair I would hardly cheer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Garrison
    LGL could really reach the players mentally. When a player struggled he knew exactly what was wrong with him and what needs to change, how to give him confidence again. It is because LGL was with them the whole time during their pro career. Now is the time the rest of the world has to attack.

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    #6
    LGL is a huge factor to Chinese dominance in TT. These players loved him and they even sacrificed their career for him. Now when they played and got coached by a different person their psychological mindset changed as well. Wang Hao is ok but not as experience as LGL. This will teach the Chinese bureaucracy a lesson. If FZD is not in the final some heads are going to fall.

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    #7
    Yes or no. I agree that LGL is very important to seniors of CNT like ZJK, ML and XX, but to a lesser extent to younger ones. Take LGY as an example, LGL did chat with him and encourage him a bit during the Marvellous Trials and warm-up matches before WTTC. But LGL has never coached LGY in a real tournament. Do you think recalling some nice words from LGL can really change LGY's mind when he missed so many match points against XX in WTTC and against Timo Boll in World Cup?
    For the new coaches like Ma Lin, Wang Hao, Liu Guozheng, no matter how great they were as players, they need to learn their own lessons how to give good advice to players or at least comfort them.
    Ma Lin and Qin Zhijian have not been sent out for any tournaments since China Open. It seems like a punishment. Qin Zhijian is important to ML and XX as their former coach especially when Ma Lin or Wu Jingping were not around (for example 2017 WTTC). But after all, it is the players who play the games and the coaches cannot really help if their shortcomings are too obvious for the opponents or their forms are too poor.



    Quote Originally Posted by Garrison
    LGL could really reach the players mentally. When a player struggled he knew exactly what was wrong with him and what needs to change, how to give him confidence again. It is because LGL was with them the whole time during their pro career. Now is the time the rest of the world has to attack.

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    #8
    LGY didn't reached the level of FZD, ML, and the earlier XX, ZJK. He is close, but he couldn't reach it yet.

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    #9
    After all I think Lin will get more chances and still will grow stronger.
    Just look how he took Chuang Chih Yuan by storm 4:0 today.
    Maybe Boll didn't play so badly too...

    I believe him(LGY), Xue Fei, FZD and maybe Wang Chuqin and even LJK and maybe a few others are the future of the CNT and gonna be their A Team sooner or later.

    I would still love to see Xu Xin and Zhang Jike have their well deserved last tournament wins, but for 2020 i can't see them on CNT A Team anymore.
    Sad while i write this, but i think anything else isn't very realistically.

    But certainly i could be totally wrong.
    If you would have asked me a year ago about Timo's and Dima's performances at Worldcup or German Open I probably wouldn't have bet a dime on them...

    So always expect the unexpected!

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    Last edited by Suga D; 11-11-2017 at 11:24 PM.

  10. Thomas Jeffcott is offline
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    #10
    EDIT: I've just added Fan Zhendong to that list!

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  11. Tony's Table Tennis is offline
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    #11
    Quote Originally Posted by rainneverever
    Yes or no. I agree that LGL is very important to seniors of CNT like ZJK, ML and XX, but to a lesser extent to younger ones. Take LGY as an example, LGL did chat with him and encourage him a bit during the Marvellous Trials and warm-up matches before WTTC. But LGL has never coached LGY in a real tournament. Do you think recalling some nice words from LGL can really change LGY's mind when he missed so many match points against XX in WTTC and against Timo Boll in World Cup?
    For the new coaches like Ma Lin, Wang Hao, Liu Guozheng, no matter how great they were as players, they need to learn their own lessons how to give good advice to players or at least comfort them.
    Ma Lin and Qin Zhijian have not been sent out for any tournaments since China Open. It seems like a punishment. Qin Zhijian is important to ML and XX as their former coach especially when Ma Lin or Wu Jingping were not around (for example 2017 WTTC). But after all, it is the players who play the games and the coaches cannot really help if their shortcomings are too obvious for the opponents or their forms are too poor.
    Even if LGL has not coached at match, LGL has been head coach of LGY for many years.

    Yes, it is the players that play at the end, not the coaches.
    But one thing that has happened in the CNT is the team chemistry, confidence and pride of CNT
    The sudden removal of LGL was as easy as slapping a fly.

    LGL was the confidence builder and hold everything together.
    He didn't take 1 day or 1 year to do it, he spent many years and that is something a new coach can't just step in and do.
    This is the same thing in a corporate world when comes to leadership. It will take some time for "this" to be rebuilt at management level.

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    BYE BYE

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    #12
    There are two blameble factores - the abscence of LGL and the presence of DHS D40+

    P.S. Oh, I forgot the third factor, maybe because it is the permanent guilt - ITTF

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    Last edited by langel; 11-12-2017 at 03:20 PM.

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    #13
    After German Open LGL should definitely experience some schadenfreude.

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    #14
    I have been expecting CNT to start passive resistance by reaching quarterfinals and semis and all losing to foreign players.

    It would not be a surprise if GSAC forgot how much LGL planned and prepared players before international events.

    It is the No.1 reason CNT is always confident and puts up a strong showing in any of the Events they attend.

    Hopefully Political pressure will sway Xi Jinping into reinstating LGL and team or else Tokyo 2020 is going to be either Japanese or German results.

    All those rumors of Timo Boll clones, Vladi clones, and other simulations setup for CNT players by the coaches were extraordinary and now u have training being done with just between CNT players themselves. It could very well be that the Chinese secret trainings and ball selection and venue analysis and opponent strategy got swept under the red carpet of Xi JinPing's Cultural Revolution.

    Now Chinese pride and superiority has gone to the dogs after LGL's departure.

    Sent from my Z1 using Tapatalk

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  15. Tony's Table Tennis is offline
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    #15
    I also believe passive resistance is a good possibility, but sooner or later it will wear out as no one enjoys loosing

    Unfortunately for Xi, LGL means nothing.
    There is still so much time until the next Olympic, so if anything was to be done, it would be this year (1st year of new olympic cycle).
    Not everyone is in LGL/Cai's camp, so this is the time for other people to step up and become the next super coach/leader

    I think give them few months.
    The lost of German Open won't be taken too lightly.
    ZJK future sure is done and dusted
    BYE BYE

  16. Suga D is offline
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    #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Ilia Minkin
    After German Open LGL should definitely experience some schadenfreude.
    I'm not so sure. Probably maybe not even to a degree.
    I think his National pride is too big to feel that way.
    In fact i think he's probably the one suffering the most from this manmade (actually politicianmade) and IMO totally unnecessary 'crisis'. Remember all this happened pretty much out of the blue in the middle of the China Open.

    I believe he's a real coach through and through and would rather see 'his boys' winning than anybody else.

    Just my 0.02€

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    Last edited by Suga D; 11-12-2017 at 10:41 PM.

  17. yoass is offline
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    #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Ilia Minkin
    After German Open LGL should definitely experience some schadenfreude.
    Don't think so. Anger, bitterness, a sense of frustrated responsibility and deep sorrow for the fate of his pupils now left to their fate and subject to secret punishment and public disdain is more likely. There are no winners here.

  18. yoass is offline
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    #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony's Table Tennis
    I also believe passive resistance is a good possibility, but sooner or later it will wear out as no one enjoys loosing
    This is all crystal ball stuff, but I don't believe passive resistance is what's going on here. There may be pressure on the players to do this, as a first step toward the punishment they "deserve" for policital agitating against a superior's decision ("bringing shame to the face of the nation"). Decommissioning the world #1, #2, #3 while still very much in the public eye, and subjecting them to all kinds of hardness, would be harder (and provide political leverage as well as additional loss of face).

    Sacrificing them by betting on the next generation and having them fade out in a way looking like natural demise would be the better way to go about it — and then, when out of the picture, exact the "severe punishments" promised in the shadows.

    The really remarkable thing here, to me, is Lin Gaoyuan's underperformance, because he's crucial to the succession story; the plot I sketched can backfire by the failure of the successors to gain prominence. That may be a calculated risk, but somehow I don't think the scenario of the CNT bottoming out entirely has received proper weight in the related considerations.

    I know, it's a grim way of thinking about things, and tin foil hat territory. Then again, such developments are the teachings of history…

  19. Garrison is offline
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    #19
    Do you think WTTTC 2018 can be the year where China is beaten? Who knows if ML is at 100% until then. Apart from ML and FZD everyone seems to be beatable now

  20. yoass is offline
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    #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Garrison
    Do you think WTTTC 2018 can be the year where China is beaten? Who knows if ML is at 100% until then. Apart from ML and FZD everyone seems to be beatable now
    ML and FZD are beatable, surely, as we've seen. Whether or not they can be overcome when playing their A game is up there in the fog.

    I'll cheer when ML returns on the scene, but I'm not sure that he will, or in what form ML will be if that happens at all: the firebreathing dragon, or the meek former warrior with broken spirit?

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