A Better Rubber for Spin+Speed?

Just to throw one idea of philosophy for someone learning out there.....

Someone learning to develop higher level technique would benefit from rubbers that are medium-soft or softer because that helps you learn how to get the ball to sink into the sponge without bottoming out to wood, to enable the developing player to learn to get the topsheet to grab the ball more fully and to maximize mechanical spin (topsheet grab + sponge and topsheet rebound).

For a newer player who has not felt that occurrence of the ball sinking into the sponge, the topsheet wrapping around the ball more fully and grabbing the ball more fully, and then the rebound and catapult that creates a huge amount of extra spin, it is much less likely for that newer player to learn how to obtain and control that depth of contact with a harder rubber. So, MXP would be too hard to really develop that.

And getting a thinner version of MXP would totally defeat the purpose of learning to get the ball yo sink into the sponge for a learning player. **[For a higher level player who already knows how to do this, a thinner version of a medium hard rubber like MXP would be fine. But I would still go with Max.]

There is a reason why Werner Schlager recommends a learning player who wants to develop looping skills to use Max thickness and not mess with thinner rubbers.

If you want to learn to hit flatter, thinner rubbers are fine. But if you want to learn to develop and improve your technique for spinning the ball, you would want Max thickness. And for that newer learner, Max thickness with a classic rubber like Mark V or an older generation tensor type rubber that has good control like Nexy Karis M or Xiom Vega Europe, would make way more sense then MXP.

A soft All+/Off- blade that is 5 plies, all wood and has a softer top ply like Limba would also help.


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

I have always been of the school of thought that Carl describes of why to use a MAX rubber, if one is trying to learn looping. Select middle of the road control OFF equipment capable of making it easy to do all strokes, develop basics, then get equipment more suited for the exact thing one wants to become.

Different schools of thought different applications. The.one that i have gotten used to is using a thin sponge or a slower rubber but more emphasis on thin contact and brushing the ball at 3 months first. The sponge engagement usually comes around the 4th to 5th month depending on the skills of the player.

yogi_bear said:

Different schools of thought different applications. The.one that i have gotten used to is using a thin sponge or a slower rubber but more emphasis on thin contact and brushing the ball at 3 months first. The sponge engagement usually comes around the 4th to 5th month depending on the skills of the player.

Click to expand...

I'm of the Yogi school here. Flat hits are also important, it's not just spin spin spin for all and any; and there's also beauty in defensive play, with chops, passive and active blocks, chopblocks, lobs, kills on weak attacks — and there's also this learning curve thing, in which you need to master a level first before stepping up to the next one. Max doesn't even suit every style, or every stage of development, necessarily.

Nittaku Fastarc G-1, Butterfly Tenergy 05, or DHS Hurricane 3 National orange or blue sponge are all decent options for a grippier rubber than M1. Yasaka Shining Dragon and Andro Rasant Grip are rubbers that have a surface for spin as well but I haven't tried them, yet. Lastly, I have a blade outfitted with Donic Bluestorm Z1's and I am happy with the spin and especially speed of them. Good luck, Lollie.

Guys, did you properly read OP post?

Lollie said:

I'm quite new to table tennis equipment, and I have started using Donic Bluefire M1 Forehand and Bluefire M2 backhand for around 3 months now. I find the speed very astonishing with the M1 rubber paired with the Donic Perrson exclusive off blade. My forehand drives and forehand topspins easily land on the table, showing that my control is decent. But the spin of the M1 is not what I was hoping for. It takes a lot of effort to have spin with this rubber. I'm now hoping to find a rubber that has similar speed but more spin than the bluefire M1. As I said, I'm quite new to equipment, so I don't know if my blade doesn't provide the spin or if it's the rubber that needs more spin. What rubber should I try? (For Forehand)
Is MX-P a good rubber for this?
(I have a play style of mid-distance from the table, and sometimes lobbing with counter smashes.

Also, I would want a better backhand rubber for consistency. Many of my shots go on the net or off the table with the M2 rubber. With consistency, it could have less speed but definitely some amount of spin in my shots. What backhand rubber should I get?

Click to expand...

As Fabian and others have written before, it seems to me that your issues are rather technique related than anything else.

The bluefire series itself is actually quite spinny, so if you say you can´t get enough spin then it must be because your strokes aren´t strong enough to engage that quite hard rubber.
I would recommend a downgrade to M2 or even M3 which are way softer and make it much easier for you to produce a good amount of spin.<br>
In your case, which seems to be a spinner´s game i would strongly NOT recommend using a thinner rubber than 2.0mm , ´cause the risk of bottoming out is way higher with the softer sponge.
Also i would NOT recommend getting MXP. The MXP is even harder than Bluefire, so if you´re having trouble producing spin with the BF M1 it´s very unlikely that the MXP will suit you better.
No matter its sponge thickness!
Either try something softer like M2 and M3, BF jp series is also a bit softer.
If you want the Evolution series, rather try something like el-s or even fx-s than mx-series

Fabian said:

Not getting spin with M1 seems to be a technique issue. How long have you been playing and what is your level? If you are not a really advanced player then M1 and so on would be wayy too fast and demanding for you.

Click to expand...

Thanks, exactly my thoughts!

Fabian said:

it totally depends on your level of play. those hard rubbers have MORE spin than soft ones if you have a good stroke.<br>
if your stroke is not that developed you will find it easier to generate SOME spin with softer rubbers. so something like rasanter r42 will probably be easier for you to play with.

Click to expand...

+1 one more time

yogi_bear said:

Mxp is really good. If you want with something harder, xiom omega euro v

Click to expand...

I usually appreciate your posts quite a lot. But on this one i feel free enough to disagree!
Dude, no offence,but did you really read OP´s post? The last thing he needs is something harder, if he can´t even get proper spin out of BF M1 IMHO<br>

yogi_bear said:

NOt if he uses the thinner version like 1.7mm

Click to expand...

*facepalm* yeah right....
Again: it´s about not getting enough spin out of BF M1!<br>
I highly doubt a thinner sponge will HELP PRODUCING SPIN

UpSideDownCarl said:

Just to throw one idea of philosophy for someone learning out there.....

Someone learning to develop higher level technique would benefit from rubbers that are medium-soft or softer because that helps you learn how to get the ball to sink into the sponge without bottoming out to wood, to enable the developing player to learn to get the topsheet to grab the ball more fully and to maximize mechanical spin (topsheet grab + sponge and topsheet rebound).

For a newer player who has not felt that occurrence of the ball sinking into the sponge, the topsheet wrapping around the ball more fully and grabbing the ball more fully, and then the rebound and catapult that creates a huge amount of extra spin, it is much less likely for that newer player to learn how to obtain and control that depth of contact with a harder rubber. So, MXP would be too hard to really develop that.

And getting a thinner version of MXP would totally defeat the purpose of learning to get the ball yo sink into the sponge for a learning player. **[For a higher level player who already knows how to do this, a thinner version of a medium hard rubber like MXP would be fine. But I would still go with Max.]

There is a reason why Werner Schlager recommends a learning player who wants to develop looping skills to use Max thickness and not mess with thinner rubbers. <br>

If you want to learn to hit flatter, thinner rubbers are fine. But if you want to learn to develop and improve your technique for spinning the ball, you would want Max thickness. And for that newer learner, Max thickness with a classic rubber like Mark V or an older generation tensor type rubber that has good control like Nexy Karis M or Xiom Vega Europe, would make way more sense then MXP.

A soft All+/Off- blade that is 5 plies, all wood and has a softer top ply like Limba would also help.


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

Click to expand...

Wow, finally somebody who took time to read OP post.
Goodie!

yogi_bear said:

Different schools of thought different applications. The.one that i have gotten used to is using a thin sponge or a slower rubber but more emphasis on thin contact and brushing the ball at 3 months first. The sponge engagement usually comes around the 4th to 5th month depending on the skills of the player.

Click to expand...

Now that makes a little more sense to me than your previous posts.
Still I´m wondering how come you write something like above and post the following in the thread "tenergy for beginners"

yogi_bear said:

it can be done with a coach but not all can achieve the level they want and not all have the capabilities to truly use tenergy as a beginner. I would rather go to the safe choice of a cheap set up.

Click to expand...

A bit contradictive if you ask me, since most people will put MXP in the same range as T05, but okay...

yoass said:

I'm of the Yogi school here. Flat hits are also important, it's not just spin spin spin for all and any; and there's also beauty in defensive play, with chops, passive and active blocks, chopblocks, lobs, kills on weak attacks. Max doesn't even suit every style.

Click to expand...

No offence, but which one?
He seems to have different opinions on the same issue, or did i just misunderstand him??
OP clearly writes his issue is producing SPIN, not blocking, not chopping, not pushing, not driving, he writes SPINNING
[Emoji6]


Well anyhow, OP, how Long have you been playing tabletennis? Your post seems to say that you haven´t been playing very long.<br>
If you play longer than a couple of years forget what i wrote and either choose tenergy or evolution, but if not BF M2 and M3 should fix your problem.

Have a lovely day, everyone!

Let me share to you the.method i am.accustomed then. The reason i opted for a thinner sponge is because i want to eliminate the factor of speed when learning to produce spin. He. s still considered new to the game at 3 months. I have taught dozens of beginners with just using a premade chinese rackets ranging from 1.5-1.9mm sponges and it never fails to see them produce spin better and easier the moment they move to a thicker sponge. You do not get what.i was.trying to say. I taught kids and adults using just rubbers like stiga evo 2.0mm , i taught using cheap addoy rackets with thin sponges and they can spin fine because not only i taught them how to spin right but so introduce earlier on how to feel the ball and spin using their own effort and not relying on the thickness of the sponge. You certainlybdo not get that because you are too fixated on just using a max sponge. Mxp is fine as long as it is in a thin sponge. Why worry about the max sponge when you can teach them the touch and brushing techniques while waiting for their rubber to get eroded. The moment they can do that they can move to a max sponge. There are lots of ways teaching how to spin the ball properly and it is not limited to just using a max sponge.

yogi_bear said:

Let me share to you the.method i am.accustomed then. The reason i opted for a thinner sponge is because i want to eliminate the factor of speed when learning to produce spin. He. s still considered new to the game at 3 months. I have taught dozens of beginners with just using a premade chinese rackets ranging from 1.5-1.9mm sponges and it never fails to see them produce spin better and easier the moment they move to a thicker sponge. You do not get what.i was.trying to say. I taught kids and adults using just rubbers like stiga evo 2.0mm , i taught using cheap addoy rackets with thin sponges and they can spin fine because not only i taught them how to spin right but so introduce earlier on how to feel the ball and spin using their own effort and not relying on the thickness of the sponge. You certainlybdo not get that because you are too fixated on just using a max sponge. Mxp is fine as long as it is in a thin sponge. Why worry about the max sponge when you can teach them the touch and brushing techniques while waiting for their rubber to get eroded. The moment they can do that they can move to a max sponge. There are lots of ways teaching how to spin the ball properly and it is not limited to just using a max sponge.

Click to expand...

I guess we can agree to disagree then.

But pls don´t put something in my mouth i haven´t wrote...
If you read my post carefully you will find that i wrote "not thinner than 2.0" I didn´t write "max only"...
But nevertheless, i don´t see much sense using 1.7mm to teach a modern spin game, but that might just be me...
[Emoji6]

I’m the one who mentioned Max sponge. And I was referring to Werner Schlager saying that, if you are trying to develop a modern spin game, that using a sponge thinner than Max would ultimately slow a player’s development because the strokes need to be different with a thinner sponge.

Anyway, I have a question for Yogi:

I am still not following your approach: If a sponge is too hard for a player, and he is having trouble spinning with a rubber because it is too hard, even though the rubber is very spinny when someone has the technique to use it—in that scenario, how would using a rubber that is harder and thinner help the person be able to spin better.

I just am not following that line of logic.

I get that if you were coaching someone and the person was learning to spin, you might start with a hard, thin rubber to work with him.

But how does that apply to this scenario where you are not working with the guy and it seems from everything presented that the rubbers he is using are too hard for him.


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

UpSideDownCarl said:

But how does that apply to this scenario where you are not working with the guy and it seems from everything presented that the rubbers he is using are too hard for him.


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

Click to expand...

Sorry for taking this out of context, but i think THESE are the key words.
You've nailed it there.
[Emoji2]
Thanks

Hi, I will try to give you a good answer to your questions, truth is that in time you will learn that it depends on multiple factors: physique, technique, blade, sponge and top sheet, and the answer is not the same for everybody. However I will try to answer your questions in general:

What rubber should I try? (For Forehand)

A rubber that easily generates spin: I would say Tibhar Aurus Select (sponge thickness: at least 1.9 or max). I think that you are looking for a rubber that doesn't requires too much physical effort or technique to generate spin. You can just user your arm and it will generate more spin than Bluefire. I think what you mean when you say that Bluefire takes a lot of effort is that you need to use your loges and torso, should, arm and wrist to get the maximum spin potential, With less effort, Aurus Select will generate more spin, however with and medium-advanced technique the spin potential of Bluefire can be greater.

Is MX-P a good rubber for this?
MX-P is and excellent rubber for Forehand and I think is awesome for BH and blocking with carbon blades, but is not for everybody. I used to have it on my FH, however balls would fly over the table (the arc was too hight and not the best choice for my technique), I switched to MX-S and that was my fit, greater spin when using good technique and very fast, excellent control. MX-S has a harder sponge that works really great with my all-wood blade.

Suggestion:

If carbon blade then for FH Aurus Select. BH: Aurus Prime
If you have a wood blade: Something with medium sponge hardness like Tibhar EL-S

Note: These are suggestions based on assumptions I made based on your post, you are looking for something with good control and generates spin without too much physical effort.

His donic rubbers are too fast for him at his stage and using max sponge is one of the main problems that hinders him to spin the ball properly. I am suggesting that he lessens the speed of the rubber by lessening the thickness. What he needs is trying to learn to spin more on brushing the ball with less sponge compression i.e., brushing the ball thinly with no sound and the point of contact is when the ball starts to go down. I am not there with the guy and so do you but i have seen this problem with new players a lot of times using fast rubbers so I eliminate the factor of speed and sponge compression to produce spin but just concentrate on brushing, contact and touch up until maybe the 5th or 6th month only then i ask them to use a thicker sponge. My students are not limited to hard rubbers mind you. We do agree his technique needs working but he needs to have a slower equipment he can practice on and a 1.7mm mxp is a choice. Also, he will not be able to maximize the use of a maxed rubber at 3 months and this is even harder if he does not have coaching. That is the reason why students can learn to loop properly with a thinner sponge if you teach first and concenrate more on brushing the ball and the touch feel. With thinner rubbers they are forced to use the right stroke and put more effort on it to spin the ball.

By the way, this is common in countries that are poor. We opt for a cheap thin sponged racket ,practice on what we have and still can spin the ball properly so i do not think this is hard to achieve. It is a long, hard method but it produces good results in tbat particular scenario.