Net height experiments - analysis - discussion.

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Hi everyone,
probably lots of people know, there is some discussion going on in the TT community about the net height, whether could it make the sport more available to the audience and so on. Dan usually asks about it in his podcasts.

I would like to approach it from the perspective of the players and the game itself.

Seem to be counter intuitive but basically playing with - say entry level players - I was able to make the opponent to run around the table due to the angles the higher net allowed me to produce [Edit - angles I'm talking here about, would refer basically only to the short - short game situation with entry level players and me being able to easy impose my game on them] . It was quite a fun for everybody really : ) Probably more than with the regular size.

I quess it was approxiamtely 2 cm higher, more or less - we didn't measure it exactly. I wonder if anyone have tried it and what was his/her impressions playing tt this way? I heard there were tests conducted in one of the leagues, maybe someone involed could share his expiriences?


Best

[Edited] Since this is the first post, let me clear it out. The sentence:
"So far in my club I experimented with my friends (amateur level) and to my surprise the first thing I noticed, was how much more angles we could play" - was removed by me from the beginning of the third paragraph to avoid misunderstanding. This was an overstatement from my side. My conclusions refer only to the experiments with "entry level players" that I could impose my game on relatively easy and the short - short game. I make it more clear in the discussion below.

UpSideDownCarl pointed it out to me. Sorry for the confusion.

J.
 
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So far in my club I experimented with my friends (amateur level) and to my surprise the first thing I noticed, was how much more angles we could play. Seem to be counter intuitive but basically playing with - say entry level players - I was able to make the opponent to run around the table due to the angles the higher net allowed me to produce. It was quite a fun for everybody really : ) Probably more than with the regular size.

I quess it was approxiamtely 2 cm higher, more or less - we didn't measure it exactly. I wonder if anyone have tried it and what was his/her impressions playing tt this way? I heard there were tests conducted in one of the leagues, maybe someone involed could share his expiriences?


Best


Raising the height of the net only limits the shots that we can do now. Lower shots will no longer be possible. Whatever you did with the higher net could also be done with the normal net height right now.

I have no idea what you mean by: "due to the angles the higher net allowed me to produce". If anything, a lower net allows for more angles.
Imagine a super low net: you can easily aim near the net post and make it.
A higher net makes this much harder, since the ball has to spend more time in the air, since the net is higher.

I don't think that testing with amateur and entry level players is a good idea.

********************

As for my opinion, raising the height of the net will make attack short serves very difficult because:

with a higher net, it is easier to serve short serves whose second bounce will be lower than the net (same with pushes, using the same reasoning). If that happens, opening shots cannot be as fast as they are now, since the player will have to lift the ball a little.
 
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Hi,
I have no idea what you mean by: "due to the angles the higher net allowed me to produce". If anything, a lower net allows for more angles.

I was surprised with the angles too - really. Although one clarification I have to make to be perfectly honest. What I tested was playing against players like pure "just for fun" type of a player. They would basically put the ball back on the table [Edit - still paragraph refers basically only to the short - short game situation with entry level players and me being able to easy impose my game on them] I didn't play with my league team friends. I'll update when I do.

But the ability (or ease) to create more angles was really apparent at the first glance. Test it yourself but I'm positive it was the case.

I don't think that testing with amateur and entry level players is a good idea.

True ... : ) but this is why I posted the topic to see if anybody more advanced/knowledgeable have any experience to share.
Thanks for interesting remarks about attacking short serves/pushes.
 
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Science says DavidSong is correct that a higher net would make it harder to make larger angled shots.

The more extreme the angle of a shot, the closer to the net it needs to land after it goes over the net.

In your experiment, what you may have noticed was that it was easy for you to play and do what you wanted against an opponent enough lower level than you for you not to be pressured by your opponent’s skills.

An opponent in the range of your level would be capable of limiting what you can do.

So your findings would probably be more the case with that same opponent and the net the original height.

So test the higher net against someone your level or higher. See how it effects things. You still may not notice too much.

Ultimately, what a higher net will mean is that you have to hit a little slower with more spin so the ball clears the net and arcs onto the table.

This would heavily impact return of serve strategies. Lower, faster flips with flatter trajectories will be harder to land, and so, less effective. The slower flips that have a bigger arc will also be less effective because they will be more used and therefore more expected.

Lower, flatter drive loops with more speed and less spin will also be harder to land and therefore less effective.

Would a change in net height effect my game? Not significantly. But it will effect the top pros to some extent.

However, they are good enough that they will adapt. They will be fine.

However, the real question is: does TT need any more rule changes? Would this actually end up benefiting the sport?

If it really would, I would be on board. I just don’t think it will do anything worth doing. And the top players would, in my opinion, take the worst of it.

They still haven’t fixed all the problems with the plastic balls and how different each ball is. Why change more rules when they don’t have that one working properly yet after 3+ years.

And on that note, where are the ORANGE Poly Balls? [emoji2]


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Hi UpSideDownCarl,
thanks for replying. Since I had too much coffee today here's my response ... ; )

In your experiment, what you may have noticed was that it was easy for you to play and do what you wanted against an opponent enough lower level than you for you not to be pressured by your opponent’s skills.


An opponent in the range of your level would be capable of limiting what you can do.

Hmm ... you might have a point about my observations.


My main "theme" usually was short - short. Having ball close to the net and quite high (due to the higher net) somehow my push to the side, right behind to the net was very effective. Having ball far to the side, the opponent had to put it back on the table also quite high and it was easy for me to redirect it to the opposite side, also near the net ...


This short - short game with wider angles was easier to perform than with the regular net - this is for sure [Edit - situation refers only to the games with entry level players and me being able to easy impose my game on them]. But I might have unnecessarily generalized it to the whole playing experience.

I'll update my findings with my league colleagues and with more advanced players for sure.

This would heavily impact return of serve strategies. Lower, faster flips with flatter trajectories will be harder to land, and so, less effective. The slower flips that have a bigger arc will also be less effective because they will be more used and therefore more expected.

The part about the service return specially wouldn't be bad actually, would it?

However, the real question is: does TT need any more rule changes? Would this actually end up benefiting the sport?


Don't get me wrong, I love the current game and players like Truls Moregard who just won silver medal at Junior WTTC are amazing. Very creative player, possibly like Jan Ove Waldner. I think his game, with those impressive punch blocks benefits from the lower net and it would be a shame to loose it.


Having said this I also have in mind the podcast with Jan on TTD in which he complains that the current TT equipment setup does not benefit players who like to play combinations ...

Best.
 
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Oh, interesting, you were talking about bigger angles and you neglected to mention that it was on high pushes from that lower level player. Player of a decent level should be able to push so that the bounce on the return ends up lower than the net.

But talking about that and saying it is easier to get bigger angles, I don’t know....When would that come up against a player who can rip a high short ball?

It is true though that, limiting a player’s ability to attack short serves as being good for the sport or bad is up to debate and could be a personal preference.

My perspective is that something like that which is an evolution in the game, taking that art of opening on short balls away, is not really the direction I would like to see the sport go in. Particularly since, the next evolution after that seems to be the art of using the opponent’s over the table attack for a new kind of 3rd ball attack. Why ML had such good success vs FZD seems to me to be his ability to take those monster banana flips and loop kill them. That is great, creative and beautiful developments in the sport. I wouldn’t want to make the loop kill easier though.

Anyway, matches against someone your level or higher where you are testing all shots including offensive shots, would be interesting.

Shuki did some tests with the higher net height and he did like it as well. However, it should be noted that he is an intermediate level player who uses a lot of spin and always has plenty of clearance over the net on his main shots.


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Oh, interesting, you were talking about bigger angles and you neglected to mention that it was on high pushes from that lower level player.

Thanks for accusation. I do admit that I was referring to my experience retrospectively having in mind this general "wide angles" surprise and the sentence about them was not necessary, but there was no hidden agenda also. I started to try to clarify it in the next post.

Although as you said "it was on high pushes", maybe because - the net was high ... so it didn't have to be 100% because of the opponent.

Best, J.
 
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[Going Back To The Thread]
Ok guys I got over this "negligence" comment. It took me a while. Thanks for a polite comment.


Sometimes I have no pair (with my amateur league friends) and I fool around with other people (no league players). So I "tested" this higher net with them and I noticed how much easier it was to play "funny stuff" and also this left and right thing. So I guess I assumed it is going to be like this with everyone else and that the game would be "angled" generally - which is of course not necessarily the case.


Maybe my first post sounded like I did those thorough tests ... but I specified and corrected it in the very second one. So there were no wrong intentions, I hope it was clear.




[Motivation]
Ok going back to the intersting subject.


Why bother?
I don't know - really. I like the current game. I guess this is a part of the experimental curiosity ... like when you want to try different rubber or paddle, or test different ball specially those plastic ones or you want to fool around with "exotic" rackets, so on.


When we played with a higher one for a while there was this feeling that you have a "real" obstacle to make a shot. Then we would go back to the normal size and all of the sudden it seem like there is much less to fight with. Not saying that this is bad.


[OTHER PEOPLE]
I promised tests. It will take a while because ... I need to convince my friends to devote say one session for this - not easy ... so I understand Loopadoop comment that we don't need change. We want to progress and we need a stable "framework" for this.


UpSideDownCarl mentioned that Shuki liked the higher net. My first impressions were just that I do not dislike it for sure ... but of course there's lot of games to still to play.

Best.
 
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Hey Jawien,

I think you may have taken what I said the wrong way.

When you presented that you could create bigger angles, you did not provide a context for why and how and on what kinds of shots you could create bigger angles. Without meaning to you made it sound as if you were getting bigger angles on all shots from anywhere on the table.

I don’t think there was any harm done. It is just important to note, a player of a decently high level will be able to drop the ball short and low, in fact lower than the net at the top of the bounce, with HEAVY spin so that it would be much harder to create those angles against a decent level player.

Also, if you were playing fast topspin shots, it would be harder to create bigger angles because of the height of the net.

I don’t think you withheld information on purpose. I just think you didn’t realize the information was important to give your “findings” some context.

And all I really was leading to was that it would be worth playing against someone who can play, at least, at your level. And test the higher net on actual game simulation: Like playing points as you would in a real match whether you are keeping score or not.

I am not sure of your level. Nor does that really matter. But, I am pretty sure that a decently high level player would realize that what you can do vs a high push with low spin is not the same as what you could do vs a skilled player who is capable of limiting your options.

Anyway, if you misunderstood my intention and interpreted what I said as an attack, I am sorry.

The simple version of my intention is: before you can say anything about the impact of changing the net height, it has to be well tested with everything high level players would do in the real pressure of a match scenario.

But, likely, the people who would be impacted the most by a change in net height would be elite level players and higher.

For me, I doubt it would change too much.


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Anyway, if you misunderstood my intention and interpreted what I said as an attack, I am sorry.

Ohh ... no need to. I probably earned the comment. Thanks anyway : ) A lesson for me to really think through before posting something and not to overstate ... Of course I completely agree with what you said about the context.


[The Theory So Far]
Just to summarize:
The higher net should affect service return strategies (i.e. making it more difficult to do the banana flip).
Low flatter drive loops and lower faster flips must be affected too.
Topspins would have to be slower with more spin.
There should be different observations on different levels of play.


[Experiments Status]
Well : ) If anyone feels like he/she could contribute and share experiences ... It will be really interesting. You shouldn't need any special net, the standard one we already had did the trick for us.
So far we have some theoretical analysis + my distorted reports ; )

Best.
 
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This thread made me think of how, if left to the ITTF, nets will be 10cm higher and balls will be made of hardwood so that you can only play a slow high drive with no-rubber carbon beach rackets.
I wonder when the ITTF will be dissolved and the glory of the game restored.

Cuz that's what'd happen if you raise the nets. The game will be entirely about topspin, no more drive/backspin really. And they won't have that, so spin will be removed also :>
 
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NDH

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Let's assume that everything the ITTF is doing, is an attempt to make the sport more TV friendly, and therefore earn them more money....

Unless they magically increase the playing population by millions across the world (which they won't), trying to get a decent TV deal is the only way they can do it - It's why we have slower, less spiny plastic balls (not to mention the increase in size).

Their argument back then was that they wanted longer/better rallies - More crowd pleasing! Has it worked? That's your opinion.....

With the net height, for me, the only thing I can see changing dramatically is the return of serve - If the ITTF are trying to force longer rallies still (for good TV), a higher net gives players more time then before, and in theory.... longer rallies will naturally happen.

From a players point of view.... I like the sport exactly as it is, but if it changes.... I'll adapt, as will everyone else.

However, I don't see Table Tennis ever becoming a sport which earns a big TV deal. When you watch an entire match of top top players, there will be a handful of "wow" points, but to the uneducated people (those who don't understand the spin/tactics of Table Tennis), it doesn't look particularly impressive.

There are (what looks like), easy errors being made - top edges, simple pushes tamely pushed into the bottom of the net - It really doesn't show just how hard it is.

Until the non playing population understand our sport...... It won't change a thing.
 
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This thread made me think of how, if left to the ITTF, nets will be 10cm higher and balls will be made of hardwood ...

Ha ha, this would be a futuristic nightmare - wouldn't it ; )

[The Complexity And Self Doubts]
Generally the more I read your comments and think about it, the more I see how complex the whole thing is.
For one the social thing, traditions, different playing styles and tactics developed over the decades. I mean even if we perform some experiments, we still won't be able to say a thing about the possible evolution of the game. Who can guarantee that it wouldn't degenerate?


Let's assume that everything the ITTF is doing, is an attempt to make the sport more TV friendly, and therefore earn them more money....

We want to see better checks for the players on the tournaments. I remember once Jun Mizutani holding check for 250$ for his second place in doubles ... really, but at the same time wouldn't we loose the spirit of the game?

"What will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? ..." : )


Until the non playing population understand our sport...... It won't change a thing.

Yeah, well the sport is technical so it's hard to understand. Seems like a closed circle.


Delayed contact and a higher arc plus a lot of ball brushing will be needed if the net height is increased substanstially. I fear looping the ball on the rise will be endangered.

But, likely, the people who would be impacted the most by a change in net height would be elite level players and higher.

This is what would I fear the most. I would really hate to see the close to the table elite players like I Liu Shiwen, those other younger Chinese girls, Fan Zhendong and likes to be marginalized in any way by this ... I'm not a revolutionary ... Lets just forget about the topic altogether : )
 
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Science says DavidSong is correct that a higher net would make it harder to make larger angled shots.


And on that note, where are the ORANGE Poly Balls? [emoji2]


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I've seen some orange balls for sale but probably are a crap :p
 
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I've seen some orange balls for sale but probably are a crap :p

It is true that you can get a few balls in orange. But, before the switch to Poly balls, you could get every ball in Orange just as easily as you could get it in yellow.
 
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Let's assume that everything the ITTF is doing, is an attempt to make the sport more TV friendly, and therefore earn them more money....

I do declare that there really truly is from now on a ban on ITTF making changes to the game for the sake of tv/screen viewership, which will only be lifted when all the improvements that can be made to pro TT production and camerawork for that same purpose have indeed and most definitely been made.
 
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