difference between Carbon

jawien said:

Don't want to derail the thread. The P-500 is described as "classic off" in my local store : ) But your third proposition is really something to consider. My friend had it and let me play for a while, such a control and feel. I'll really think about it now. No sk7 jp? : )

Click to expand...

In my hand the 6 or 7 P-500s I tried (long time ago) all felt like Off- to me. They felt like the same basic speed as the Hurricane King and the original Butterfly Kong Linghui. They are all similar enough.

The Stiga Offensive Classic, it often gets called an Off rated blade. But I would consider it Off- and I would say be P-500 and the Offensive Classic are very close in speed.

But, put one in your hand and decide for yourself.

For sure the blades I listed are 5 ply, all wood and considerably slower than a TB ALC or a Viscaria.


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

Jawien, the site below will give you an idea of what is possible. That company produces a vast variety of fabrics woven from carbon and from fibers like Zylon and Kevlar. It is quite likely that this company supplies materials to some blade makers, almost certainly to Stiga and maybe others too. I should point out that the TT companies don't manufacture the composites. They buy them in bulk as pre-woven sheets. There are a handful of companies that produce the weaves and more than one company can manufacture woven fabrics from the same materials, although the resulting products may not be identical owing to some differences in the weaving process.

In addition, the companies that make the fabrics buy the fibers from a a chemical supplier. For example, Vectran (aka Arylate) is sold by a company called Kuraray, who are the only ones who can make it. They will sell their fibers to many different companies, some of whom use it to make woven fabric. If one also considers the woods, machines, and adhesives, it is clear that the supply chain issues that go into making TT blades can be pretty complex, and different blade makers can obtain similar composite materials from different companies. An interesting factoid that I recently learned is that part of what makes Zylon blades ( ZLF, ZLC and sZLC) expensive is that you need special machines to cut the fabrics to the right shape.

https://compositeenvisions.com/comp...abrics-2/carbon-fiber-zylon-hybrids-zylon-98/

Following up on my last post, it is clear that TT companies think that the different weaves of what is essentially the same carbon fiber can produce blades that play differently. The company I linked to above produces TeXtreme (TM) which is the "secret ingredient" of all Stiga Carbonado blades. Stiga markets that material as conferring a playing quality different from any carbon blades they made before. If you click where they list TeXtreme on the left side of the page, you can see a picture and it is clear that the weave is very unusual compared to the other carbon fabrics they sell. The same kind of thing is what makes ZLC and sZLC different. How different? On that I'm not the right guy to ask because I haven't played with any of those blade enough to say.

Baal said:

An interesting factoid that I recently learned is that part of what makes Zylon blades ( ZLF, ZLC and sZLC) expensive is that you need special machines to cut the fabrics to the right shape.

Click to expand...

More great info. Thanks Baal.

The sentence in the quote....it reminds me of when Smash_Fan got himself a TB ZLF deciding he wanted to use the blade. Well after his first hit with it, he decided the head was too big.

He liked the smaller head size of his Jonyer. He had already cut down the head size of a few blades.

Well, he tried to cut the TB ZLF and learned what you said above the hard way. Lol.


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

A good blade can last for quite a long time.

I have a friend who plays at a semi-pro level who has a blade that is his main blade which he got in 1991 when he was a junior.

If you like your blade, no need to change.

But it is sometimes fun to try new equipment. So, really, if money isn’t an issue, there is nothing wrong with getting one of those blades you think you might like.


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

Fabian said:

Why would you recommend a player coming from an allround blade an Off+ W968 for hundreds of euros?

even if he was going for that kind of blade he could just get the fang bo carbon which is really similar, most w968 are fakes anyway.

you don't even know his level of playing and given the fact that he comes from an allround blade and does not seem to know too much about equipment i'd say that the w968 is not the right choice.

he should move up to a faster 5 ply, maybe off-, or off 7ply or maaaybe a not so fast inner carbon type blade like waldner senso carbon.

Click to expand...

I know a guy who switched from a Grubba All+ to an HL5, he played USATT 2200 before the switch and he plays USATT 2200 now. So what is your point?

My point is that it’s hindering improvement. A 2200 player already got a good level, for him it might be a good change.

Hurricane_boss said:

Hi all! I've recently considered getting a good looping blade with a laege sweetspot for hurricane 3, and I've seen so many carbon looping blades(hurricane long 5, hurricane hao 3) and I see that they have different carbon in them. So my question is, what ia the difference between them? I would like a soft carbon with large sweetspot someone please explain. thx

Click to expand...

Why not go for Yasaka Ma Lin Soft Carbon? Great quality and not expensive

Herbert said:

Why not go for Yasaka Ma Lin Soft Carbon? Great quality and not expensive

Click to expand...

I have hit with the SH version and I always thought that was a good blade.

When someone ask me about Yasaka blade, first blade come to mind most of the time is the Ma Lin Soft Carbon.

Baal said:

[...] Those materials are synthetic polymers of great strength, and are softer than carbon. One of their big effects was to absorb a lot of high frequency vibration.
[...]
The first one of those was the Photino (zylon only) and of course they have ZLC blades (carbon-Zylon weave). The Super ZLC is the same material as ZLC but the weave pattern is different [...]

Click to expand...

Great posts Baal, you really gave us an in-depth knowledge about those composite materials! So far I was barely scratching the surface. Also Fabian made interesting points about how those layers are positioned.

Here is the funny thing, in the places I'm quoting you, you talked about different vibration frequency absorption and then I read about the different "ZLC's weave pattern". I just overlooked and took weave for wave ... hence my strange question : ) I thought you have graphs showing what frequencies are being absorbed with different fibers ... Anyway it made you write more interesting stuff so I guess, we're better off with my mistake anyway ; )

UpSideDownCarl said:

He liked the smaller head size of his Jonyer. He had already cut down the head size of a few blades.
Well, he tried to cut the TB ZLF and learned what you said above the hard way. Lol.

Click to expand...

On that note, when I started playing tt I experimented with the handles and I cut one of my blades handle to a pen-hold style and tried to hold it with a shake hand, for more wrist freedom ...

My other friend also in his tt childhood bought a nice TB ZLC fresh new blade. He didn't like the handle, so he started sanding it down. All the time he didn't like the shape so he was sending it more and more. Eventually the handle was so small you could not even hold it ... learning the hard way ... I remember we had fun for the whole evening when he showed it to us and it's final shape was so funny .. ; )

[Hurricane The King]
So I asked my friend to let me try it one more time yesterday. Rassant Powergrip both sides. It reminded me how much more fun and how beautiful the allround game is. I didn't play worst with my same level college. Made me realized what a spaceX racket I have now ... hmm I guess I'll make 3 different setups Gionis all+ carbon, King/Avalox/Hadrow SR and the current ...

Actually graphs of how different composites transmit vibration frequencies carried out carefully would be interesting to me. But I don't have any. Some players are using cell phone apps to look at the sound blades make one a ball hits but one needs to look at the whole spectrum I suspect and not just the main tone.

Fabian said:

My point is that it’s hindering improvement. A 2200 player already got a good level, for him it might be a good change.

Click to expand...

But it might not be - the point is that as long as someone is not using a rocket launcher, let him use whatever he wants. ALC blades are usually very reasonable blades compared to all wood. The HL5 actually has a vibration frequency very close to OFF- when I tested it.

the HL5 IS a rocket launcher, same as the ALC blades, for someone, who does not have a solid foundation in technique.

i'm often amused when I see people from all over the world with their super fast blades and claiming they can play so well with them and when i watch their videos they're just pretty bad and you can see that their equipment is wayyy too fast for them.

Baal said:

Some players are using cell phone apps to look at the sound blades make one a ball hits but one needs to look at the whole spectrum I suspect and not just the main tone.

Click to expand...

Yes, I'd usually listen how high the sound is when tapping the blade with my finger. Hmm, the whole range of frequencies analysis ... I wonder whether you could make a general classification of blades using such an approach. SpaceX rocket science ; )

Fabian said:

the HL5 IS a rocket launcher, same as the ALC blades, for someone, who does not have a solid foundation in technique.

Click to expand...

Gosh Fabian since you do the coaching, I wish I could have a training session with someone like you. There's not too many coaches with a solid equipment knowledge. Usually they operate in the slow-fast, good feeling terminology ...

Baal said:

Actually graphs of how different composites transmit vibration frequencies carried out carefully would be interesting to me. But I don't have any. Some players are using cell phone apps to look at the sound blades make one a ball hits but one needs to look at the whole spectrum I suspect and not just the main tone.

Click to expand...

I agree, but I would argue that the main tone does tell you a lot, though the analysis at ttgearlab did help me see that it is limited.

Fabian said:

the HL5 IS a rocket launcher, same as the ALC blades, for someone, who does not have a solid foundation in technique.

i'm often amused when I see people from all over the world with their super fast blades and claiming they can play so well with them and when i watch their videos they're just pretty bad and you can see that their equipment is wayyy too fast for them.

Click to expand...

Okay. I have times when I agree with what you are saying and there are other times when I just say it is not as critical as you think it is. Not everyone gets the same feedback out of their equipment or coaching.

NextLevel said:

I agree, but I would argue that the main tone does tell you a lot, though the analysis at ttgearlab did help me see that it is limited.

Click to expand...

https://ttgearlab.com/2017/02/06/performance-indices-the-way-to-evaluatie-blade-by-measurement/
[Author: TTGear Lab]

Omg NextLevel, turns out the Frequency response analysis is used to check the characteristics of the blade. A well known approach in the dynamic systems theory.

jawien said:

https://ttgearlab.com/2017/02/06/performance-indices-the-way-to-evaluatie-blade-by-measurement/

Omg NextLevel, turns out the Frequency response analysis is used to check the characteristics of the blade. A well known approach in the dynamic systems theory.
[Edit] It's EDF, I need to check it but seem yet something different. Thanks!

Click to expand...

Yup! Here's some background: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S187770581201716X