difference between Carbon

Hi all! I've recently considered getting a good looping blade with a laege sweetspot for hurricane 3, and I've seen so many carbon looping blades(hurricane long 5, hurricane hao 3) and I see that they have different carbon in them. So my question is, what ia the difference between them? I would like a soft carbon with large sweetspot someone please explain. thx
 
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first you have to differentiate between inner carbon and outer carbon blades.

so W968, W997, N301 BTY Innerforce, Acoustic Inner Carbon, Waldner Senso Carbon etc are all Inner Carbon blades. They feel quite woody and the carbon only kicks in on at least medium hard strokes. Usually a bit easier to play in short game

Then you also have the classic Outer Carbon blades, for example Viscaria, TBS, TB ALC, Drinkhall Powerspin Carbon, Primorac or Schlager Carbon. Those are harder and play less woody, usually have less vibration and the carbon makes a difference in basically every shot.

After you made your choice here you also have to differentiate between your outer ply. Limba, Hinoki or Koto.
Limba is less bouncy than the other too and a bit softer, Koto is a bit harder for example. They all have different feel and Koto is a lot bouncier than Limba for example.

Most of the carbon blades are not pure carbon but arylate or aramid carbon blades, so they are not super hard but still got some vibration left and some flex.

What blade do you currently use?
 
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People have already mentioned that how close to the surface the carbon layer is located is very important. The closer to the surface, the more you feel it, whereas if it is deeper, the blades feels a bit more like a pure wood. But there is another set of issues, mainly the weave pattern and whether other materials are present.

All of the composite materials used to make blades are made as fibers that are woven into sheets using computer-controllable machines. It is much the way cotton or wool is woven into a cloth. And that means there are many different weave patterns with different textures, thread counts etc. and therefore different properties. This gives rise to variations like Tamca carbon, Uniaxial carbon, Textreme, etc. etc. The weave pattern affects how the blade plays.

When carbon was first used in blades, there was an opinion by many that it could be hard to control and made blades too hard or a feel like "glass". (A bigger issue with 38 mm balls). So several manufacturers, especially Btfly, experimented with other materials, especially poly-aramide and related fibers like Kevlar and Vectran (another name for Arylate). Those materials are synthetic polymers of great strength, and are softer than carbon. One of their big effects was to absorb a lot of high frequency vibration. An early classic of this sort was the Butterfly Keyshot. But a lot of people found that the Arylate by itself was too slow and could give a blade that was a bit unpredictable. So Butterfly introduced blades in which the carbon and arylate fibers were woven together into a single sheet -- like a cotton/polyester blend in clothes -- and introduced this with the Iolite and Viscaria (I think those were the first ALC blades, certainly they were the first big sellers); and a few years later with Timo Boll Spirit and several others. That seemed to be perfect. Not too slow, not too soft. Bezt of both worlds. They have been making different versions of that blade ever since and people like them still, if anything their popularity has grown.

Later on manufacturers introduced Zylon, which is another material in the same general family as Arylate, but it feels a bit crisper and faster in blades. It is a lot more expensive. The first one of those was the Photino (zylon only) and of course they have ZLC blades (carbon-Zylon weave). The Super ZLC is the same material as ZLC but the weave pattern is different, I believe it is smaller fibers woven at higher density, and therefore more expensive still.

So this means there is really a huge variety of possibilities for blade construction with composite materials, and that is without even beginning to get into how the wood layers interact with all this. For example, among Butterfly ALC blade aficionados, there is difference of opinion on what is the best wood to use as the outer layer, all other things being equal. Also the thickness of the central wood core is crucial since this determines how flexible the blade is (at low frequencies of vibration). Even the first generation Butterfly ALC blades differ greatly in the central core; the Iolite had a much thicker central core than Viscaria and so was a lot stiffer and faster. That thick central core lives on today in the Garaydia.

I have focused on Btfly because I know their product line but for sure DHS has quite a few blades with very similar composite materials.
 
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Hi there! Yes I did know about 50 % of the info you gave me there, and thanks for the tips! H301 has arcyrlic carbon on the second layer on both sides and the Hurricane Hao3 has a layer of caron in the middle. Which one is better? Or should I maybe get Long 5? I mean, since ma long is one hell of a looper(the best one in the world) does that mean his blade will be the best for looping? I saw some reviews and people said it was amazing. Anyone help?
 
first you have to differentiate between inner carbon and outer carbon blades.

so W968, W997, N301 BTY Innerforce, Acoustic Inner Carbon, Waldner Senso Carbon etc are all Inner Carbon blades. They feel quite woody and the carbon only kicks in on at least medium hard strokes. Usually a bit easier to play in short game

Then you also have the classic Outer Carbon blades, for example Viscaria, TBS, TB ALC, Drinkhall Powerspin Carbon, Primorac or Schlager Carbon. Those are harder and play less woody, usually have less vibration and the carbon makes a difference in basically every shot.

After you made your choice here you also have to differentiate between your outer ply. Limba, Hinoki or Koto.
Limba is less bouncy than the other too and a bit softer, Koto is a bit harder for example. They all have different feel and Koto is a lot bouncier than Limba for example.

Most of the carbon blades are not pure carbon but arylate or aramid carbon blades, so they are not super hard but still got some vibration left and some flex.

What blade do you currently use?

Well, thanks or all that! And honestly I don't really know what my blade is because I first got a DHS complete blade a LLOONNGGG time ago and I do not know whatt blade it is. I went to the website and apparently it is a 5 layer wood allround blade? (I'm not even sure, but I know that it is all wood)
 
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There is no way to know what you like without trying it.

This post is actually quite important.

I also think Baal’s long post was incredibly useful.

However, there are Butterfly equipment fans and these days there seem to be more and more DHS fans.

I think Hurricane_boss is primarily looking for a DHS composite blade.

Hurricane_boss: don’t get the ML5. Get the blade Ma Long actually uses. Get the W998 National version. I think that is the blade you are actually looking for.


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Why would you recommend a player coming from an allround blade an Off+ W968 for hundreds of euros? :confused:

even if he was going for that kind of blade he could just get the fang bo carbon which is really similar, most w968 are fakes anyway.

you don't even know his level of playing and given the fact that he comes from an allround blade and does not seem to know too much about equipment i'd say that the w968 is not the right choice.

he should move up to a faster 5 ply, maybe off-, or off 7ply or maaaybe a not so fast inner carbon type blade like waldner senso carbon.
 
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[...] he should move up to a faster 5 ply, maybe off-, or off 7ply or maaaybe a not so fast inner carbon type blade like waldner senso carbon.

Fabian, sorry to catch you here, if I may, what would you suggest as a little step down from tb alc an still preserve the character - koto (if possible). I calmed it down with my rubbers, but maybe something slower would be nice too. sk7?

Thanks in advance ; )
 
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Fabian, sorry to catch you here, if I may, what would you suggest as a little step down from tb alc an still preserve the character - koto (if possible). I calmed it down with my rubbers, but maybe something slower would be nice too. sk7?

Thanks in advance ; )

Kong Linghui type blades.

1) Avolox P-500 (the blade Kong Linghui used before he signed with Butterfly and the blade the Butterfly Kong Linghui was cloned from)
2) Butterfly Kong Linghui (not sure they still make the original).
3) DHS Hurricane King (designed for Wang Liqin)

The plies are:

Koto-Spruce-Ayous-Spruce-Koto

The springiness of the Spruce ply actually does something under the Koto that is similar to what the ALC ply does.

The blades I listed are all Off- but more than fast enough.


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Why would you recommend a player coming from an allround blade an Off+ W968 for hundreds of euros? [emoji782]

even if he was going for that kind of blade he could just get the fang bo carbon which is really similar, most w968 are fakes anyway.

you don't even know his level of playing and given the fact that he comes from an allround blade and does not seem to know too much about equipment i'd say that the w968 is not the right choice.

he should move up to a faster 5 ply, maybe off-, or off 7ply or maaaybe a not so fast inner carbon type blade like waldner senso carbon.

You are right of course. But I saw that the information he wants is the information I gave. Even if that info isn’t right for him. [emoji2]

If Baal gave the info he gave and H_boss gave the responses he gave, then why waste time.

There is more than one way to learn what equipment you actually need. And I know many many players who are low-intermediate level who use equipment way more expensive and way faster than they need. For some the status (“But I have a W968!”) makes them happy. For others, they can’t imagine using something that isn’t as fast. They don’t realize how many balls go off the table because their equipment is too fast.

If he really wanted a good looping blade, he would probably be looking at Butterfly Primorac Off-.

But Ma Long is the best looper so his blade must be the best for looping.

You really have to think about how silly that statement sounded.

But sorry if you didn’t get my joking.

And I am more than happy for you to help H-boss.


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1) Avolox P-500 (the blade Kong Linghui used before he signed with Butterfly and the blade the Butterfly Kong Linghui was cloned from)
2) Butterfly Kong Linghui (not sure they still make the original).
3) DHS Hurricane King (designed for Wang Liqin)

Don't want to derail the thread. The P-500 is described as "classic off" in my local store : ) But your third proposition is really something to consider. My friend had it and let me play for a while, such a control and feel. I'll really think about it now. No sk7 jp? : )
 
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Where do you get that "most w968 are fakes anyway"? I have two and they're genuine.

Why would you recommend a player coming from an allround blade an Off+ W968 for hundreds of euros? :confused:

even if he was going for that kind of blade he could just get the fang bo carbon which is really similar, most w968 are fakes anyway.

you don't even know his level of playing and given the fact that he comes from an allround blade and does not seem to know too much about equipment i'd say that the w968 is not the right choice.

he should move up to a faster 5 ply, maybe off-, or off 7ply or maaaybe a not so fast inner carbon type blade like waldner senso carbon.
 
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[...] For example, among Butterfly ALC blade aficionados, there is difference of opinion on what is the best wood to use as the outer layer, all other things being equal.

Great in-depth analysis! I'm definitely a koto believer vs Maze's and Freitas. Nothing like crisp, sharp and direct feel of this wood. For me it really bites the ball.

Ps. I'd love to see how those wave differ on some kind of graphs or diagrams.
 
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