Troublemaking at the 2017 US Open

This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Active Member
Nov 2015
543
816
1,977
You make it sound like that they don't allow everybody to participate
You do know it is an Open event, meaning any one is free to participate......

+1 - US Open is kind of unique in that way - it's more or less a festival of TT, you have almost 90 events to compete in over a week: rating-based (beginner to Open), age-based, doubles, hardbat, sandpaper, 2-person teams etc. Draws 800+ players. We also have 'closed' version in July called US Nationals, you have to be a citizen to participate, not sure if being permanent resident is enough though.

By the way, technically other ITTF tours are 'open' too (yes, there is some paperwork required), but with no skill-appropriate events, why would an amateur go there?
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Dec 2017
1,144
619
2,637
+1 - US Open is kind of unique in that way - it's more or less a festival of TT, you have almost 90 events to compete in over a week [...]

Sounds like a great event really. Did you have lots of people participating?

As for the Ittf's events I never really formed such a question in my head :) For what I knew you don't have to be designated by the federation. A friend of mine polish female first league player (ekstraklasa) used to participate few time, but she had to pay for all the expenses.

We had a discussion not long ago with Tony, about the new ranking system and players like Truls Moregath possibly being blocked to participate in the tournaments because of points limitations. I don't know if this is really the case.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: OldschoolPenholder
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Active Member
Nov 2015
543
816
1,977
Sounds like a great event really. Did you have lots of people participating?

As for the Ittf's events I never really formed such a question in my head :) For what I knew you don't have to be designated by the federation. A friend of mine polish female first league player (ekstraklasa) used to participate few time, but she had to pay for all the expenses.

We had a discussion not far ago with Tony, about the new ranking system and players like Truls Moregath possibly being blocked to participate in the tournaments because of points limitations. I don't know if this is really the case.

838 players in 2017 US Open. By the way, Teams tournament in November had 963 players :cool: (150 tables), even more than US Open.

World Veterans Championship is probably THE largest TT tournament, drawing 3000+ players (rumor is they might have 5000+ in Las Vegas in June 2018).
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Dec 2017
1,144
619
2,637
838 players in 2017 US Open. By the way, Teams tournament in November had 963 players :cool: (150 tables), even more than US Open.
World Veterans Championship is probably THE largest TT tournament, drawing 3000+ players (rumor is they might have 5000+ in Las Vegas in June 2018).

About 1k players ... wow. I hope the tournament will grow even bigger in 2018. Maybe this is the way to go, to make such events really attractive.
5k+ Veterans hmm ... if each participant brings his spouse there will be like 10k people ;)
I remember WTTTC in Dortmund 2012 I think it was close to 10k people watching the final (Germany - China), so far the biggest tt event I participated in ...
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: OldschoolPenholder
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Sep 2013
7,259
6,225
15,295
Read 3 reviews
Sounds like a great event really. Did you have lots of people participating?

As for the Ittf's events I never really formed such a question in my head :) For what I knew you don't have to be designated by the federation. A friend of mine polish female first league player (ekstraklasa) used to participate few time, but she had to pay for all the expenses.

We had a discussion not long ago with Tony, about the new ranking system and players like Truls Moregath possibly being blocked to participate in the tournaments because of points limitations. I don't know if this is really the case.

For ITTF world tours
a private individual can not enter to play
the player's national federation would need to enter the player (even if the player is not a national team member, the federation are the only ones who can enter)

This is where it becomes politics, as national federations can say no to entering players, and then that is the final say
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Dec 2017
1,144
619
2,637
For ITTF world tours
a private individual can not enter to play
the player's national federation would need to enter the player (even if the player is not a national team member, the federation are the only ones who can enter)
This is where it becomes politics, as national federations can say no to entering players, and then that is the final say

Ok, so maybe she was not designated to be sponsored by the federation I guess. I remember an article in Poland, the guy was arguing how to make the national federation to let somebody play and what conditions one would have to meet. But these are just internal laws. Btw it's funny that a national federation has to approve your participation ...
 
  • Like
Reactions: OldschoolPenholder
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Sep 2013
7,259
6,225
15,295
Read 3 reviews
Ok, so maybe she was not designated to be sponsored by the federation I guess. I remember an article in Poland, the guy was arguing how to make the national federation to let somebody play and what conditions one would have to meet. But these are just internal laws. Btw it's funny that a national federation has to approve your participation ...

It is dependent on the national federation
But the national federation will need to enter the player (some federation will enter without hassles, some might put rules that you need to be in the national team etc)
sponsoring the player (financing) is another subject on its own.
 
  • Like
Reactions: OldschoolPenholder
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Active Member
Nov 2015
543
816
1,977
It is dependent on the national federation
But the national federation will need to enter the player (some federation will enter without hassles, some might put rules that you need to be in the national team etc)
sponsoring the player (financing) is another subject on its own.

Wally Green from the US did do this (enter various Tour events) a few times - he's a pretty decent player (2300+?), but not a national team member, and IIRC he never won a single game there. Probably had lots of fun, though. Obviously, you are footing your own bill in these cases.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Dec 2017
1,144
619
2,637
It is dependent on the national federation
But the national federation will need to enter the player (some federation will enter without hassles, some might put rules that you need to be in the national team etc)
sponsoring the player (financing) is another subject on its own.

Yeah, for me checking how to participate in the Ittf's event is as practical as asking people about the best route to the top of Everest ...

Although once a year we have an open event attracting good players. This is why I am so sympathetic to the US Open formula, it's always a thrill to be able to have a duel with a pro player.
 
Last edited:
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Sep 2013
7,259
6,225
15,295
Read 3 reviews
Wally Green from the US did do this (enter various Tour events) a few times - he's a pretty decent player (2300+?), but not a national team member, and IIRC he never won a single game there. Probably had lots of fun, though. Obviously, you are footing your own bill in these cases.

Yep
and other than that, you also get many US juniors footing they own bill in return for the kids to develop international experience
US is good in that way.
I guess in a true democratic society, USATT can't say no to allowing its members/US citizen to play in a random open

TT is expensive - need to foot its own bill (for training or for tournaments)
Even your world top 20 can't break even from income/expense from tournaments
 
  • Like
Reactions: OldschoolPenholder
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Active Member
Nov 2015
543
816
1,977
Yeah, for me checking how to participate in the Ittf's event is as practical as asking people about the best route to the top of Everest ...

Although once a year we have an open event attracting good players. This is why I am so sympathetic to the US Open formula, it's always a thrill to be able to have a duel with a pro player.

To be honest, losing to a 2800 player is almost indistinguishable from doing the same against 2200 one, at least for me :D . Not much of a duel in both cases (I am 1750+), and they don't even have to use their A game.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Sep 2013
7,259
6,225
15,295
Read 3 reviews
Yeah, for me checking how to participate in the Ittf's event is as practical as asking people about the best route to the top of Everest ...

Although once a year we have an open event attracting good players. This is why I am so sympathetic to the US Open formula, it's always a thrill to be able to have a duel with a pro player.

These open's are good
I guess the main point all these big federations are missing is - it must be easy and simple for players to take part. Easy for players to watch/follow

The more complicated it is, then over time, people will loose interest

US Open - both this one and the teams one are really good in that regards.
TT festival is what is needed in every country
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Dec 2017
1,144
619
2,637
To be honest, losing to a 2800 player is almost indistinguishable from doing the same against 2200 one, at least for me :D . Not much of a duel in both cases (I am 1750+), and they don't even have to use their A game.

True, true ... not much of a duel - agree, just a thrill before the match that you will have one ... ;)

As for the tt festival it is a great idea, but rather not easy to materialize from the organizational point of view ...
 
  • Like
Reactions: OldschoolPenholder
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Oct 2014
12,277
17,740
44,293
Read 17 reviews
True, true ... not much of a duel - agree, just a thrill before the match that you will have one ... ;)

As for the tt festival it is a great idea, but rather not easy to materialize from the organizational point of view ...

We have them in America, it is not as hard as you think. In fact it helps the sport a lot more as the entry fees make the event easier to sponsor. In most American open tournaments, it is the lower rated players entry fees paying for the pros to play.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Dec 2017
1,144
619
2,637
We have them in America, it is not as hard as you think. In fact it helps the sport a lot more as the entry fees make the event easier to sponsor. In most American open tournaments, it is the lower rated players entry fees paying for the pros to play.

There are several, kind of tt festivals in Poland, but these are usually one day events (there is one overnight tournament). Maybe some of my compatriots present here will correct me if I'm wrong, but nobody tried a semi pro event to be held for 5 days ... (US Open was 17 - 22 Dec right?). It would be quite unpredictable how many people would come and stay just to play for a few days. I myself actually would find it challenging to find a few days during the week just for the tt fun ... Over the weekend events - quite possible.
 
  • Like
Reactions: OldschoolPenholder
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Active Member
Nov 2015
543
816
1,977
There are several, kind of tt festivals in Poland, but these are usually one day events (there is one overnight tournament). Maybe some of my compatriots present here will correct me if I'm wrong, but nobody tried a semi pro event to be held for 5 days ... (US Open was 17 - 22 Dec right?). It would be quite unpredictable how many people would come and stay just to play for a few days. I myself actually would find it challenging to find a few days during the week just for the tt fun ... Over the weekend events - quite possible.


People plan their vacations around it (US Open and Nationals) :), and Joola Teams is held over Thanksgiving holiday, so no time off is needed, you just need to convince your significant other that missing a family/friends gathering is OK. It's a hobby, so people are willing to spend time and money, especially if it comes with some bragging rights - 'here is my US Open bronze medal from U2000 Division C ' (yup, got one, and proud of it!).

It helps that time and place of these large tournaments is pretty static, so you can plan in advance, buy cheaper tickets etc. Part of attraction becomes seeing people you've met and played there last year (or many years ago) - vast majority of TT players are quite pleasant bunch.

By the way, technically most of TT tournaments in the US are 'festivals', even 1-2 day ones (98% of them) - you can play several rating appropriate events, and yes, as NextLevel pointed out, most of these fees will go towards prize money for top players in the Open division. Which I'm fine with.
 
Last edited:
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Dec 2017
1,144
619
2,637
People plan their vacations around it (US Open and Nationals) :), and Joola Teams is held over Thanksgiving holiday, so no time off is needed, you just need to convince your significant other that missing a family/friends gathering is OK. It's a hobby, so people are willing to spend time and money, especially if it comes with some bragging rights - 'here is my US Open bronze medal from U2000 Division C ' (yup, got one, and proud of it!).
[...]


Ha, ha ... having tt fun over Thanksgiving with your family sounds pretty drastic (I've stayed in the US for a while : ) and risky ... even in the perspective of this Bronze medal for x category ; ) Still I agree it can be planned around vacations. Usually women secretly love guys with passions ... ; )

I guess what helps you to decide to participate in the tournament is your ranking system, like in most of those tournaments you can gain points - right? In Poland the system is district based so to be ranked higher first you need to be good at your local tournaments. If you are no good than there's no reason for you to go to the other part of the country other than pure fun.

And I agree tt is a very social game ...
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Oct 2014
12,277
17,740
44,293
Read 17 reviews
Ha, ha ... having tt fun over Thanksgiving with your family sounds pretty drastic (I've stayed in the US for a while : ) and risky ... even in the perspective of this Bronze medal for x category ; ) Still I agree it can be planned around vacations. Usually women secretly love guys with passions ... ; )

I guess what helps you to decide to participate in the tournament is your ranking system, like in most of those tournaments you can gain points - right? In Poland the system is district based so to be ranked higher first you need to be good at your local tournaments. If you are no good than there's no reason for you to go to the other part of the country other than pure fun.

And I agree tt is a very social game ...

The rating is more for grouping players below a certain level together so that they do not play opponents who are too good and can be seeded appropriately into groups before the knockout phase. Of course, like any ranking system, it can't account for volatility and rapidly improving players but it is better than nothing. But it allows beginners to compete with each other if they love the sport, and that is one of the good things about it. So as long as an event gets entries, you don't have to be a good player - you could be in a beginner event if there are enough of you to play it.

And pure fun is of course why most amateurs play, and if you can't attract and support people who enjoy the pure fun, and who are often richer than the pros and are willing to pay to see the pros play if they can get value, then what is the point? I used to love the fact when I went to Nationals that I was in a vacation city playing table tennis, I could rent a car and see sights or just go to the Vegas shows, and I could watch good players play when I had little else to do.

The Veterans next year will be a blast, I just haven't decided to go or not.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Active Member
Nov 2015
543
816
1,977
Ha, ha ... having tt fun over Thanksgiving with your family sounds pretty drastic (I've stayed in the US for a while : ) and risky ... even in the perspective of this Bronze medal for x category ; ) Still I agree it can be planned around vacations. Usually women secretly love guys with passions ... ; )

I guess what helps you to decide to participate in the tournament is your ranking system, like in most of those tournaments you can gain points - right? In Poland the system is district based so to be ranked higher first you need to be good at your local tournaments. If you are no good than there's no reason for you to go to the other part of the country other than pure fun.

And I agree tt is a very social game ...

It does sound drastic, especially to a non-TT player, since Thanksgiving is such a family-centric holiday here, perhaps even more so than Christmas. And yet it's the most popular tournament in the US...

I'm not sure folks play these large tournaments because of rating points (and yes, your rating is on the line at every sanctioned USATT tournament) - in fact there is an argument that some people stop playing after they reached a rating milestone in order to preserve it :(. But, I guess one under-appreciated aspect of nationwide rating system is that it enables more or less fair competition in any tournament: I can go from Boston to pretty much anywhere and my ~1750 rating will seed me appropriately for competition in Chicago, DC, Seattle or Silicon Valley (OK, may be not there :D, too many 500-rated little loop monsters). I know I should not/can't play U1500, will be competitive in U1800 and have no chance whatsoever in U2300, but why not, while I'm there...

And I guess it makes tournament organizer's life easier too, since they can offer something for everyone, from true beginner to a best player in the country/region, so it's a win-win. An interesting question, though - what happens if TT becomes more popular in the US - would current format survive? At some point you can't have US Open as a 'festival' anymore - so will they have to do qualification stages, limit # of participants, just like they do in golf US Open? Good problem to have, I'm sure, from USATT perspective.
 
Last edited:
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Dec 2017
1,144
619
2,637
The rating is more for grouping players below a certain level together [...]
And pure fun is of course why most amateurs play, and if you can't attract and support people who enjoy the pure fun, and who are often richer than the pros and are willing to pay to see the pros play if they can get value, then what is the point? I used to love the fact when I went to Nationals that I was in a vacation city playing table tennis, I could rent a car and see sights or just go to the Vegas shows [...]

[...] in fact there is an argument that some people stop playing after they reached a rating milestone in order to preserve it :(. But, I guess one under-appreciated aspect of nationwide rating system is that it enables more or less fair competition in any tournament
[...] An interesting question, though - what happens if TT becomes much popular in the US - would current format survive?

Thanks, I think you gave me a pretty good idea what the ranking system in the US is all about. Though I wish I knew how to translate your points into our league levels. Usually when I introduce myself in any tournament the question is what league I play? Fourth .. but I could make it to the third if I was practicing .. okay ... ; ) Actually something similar to the US system could be interesting in Poland or even Europe ...

Playing or not I don't mind of course to pay for the tickets to watch pros. But here's a funny thing, many of my friends does not like as much watching high level tt as they prefer to play themselves. If it is to be a longer time spend on tt it is usually practice related. We organize those camps during summers with our befriended top polish player (80-90'ties). Please feel invited ;)
 
  • Like
Reactions: pgpg
Top