Troublemaking at the 2017 US Open

jawien said:

Thanks, I think you gave me a pretty good idea what the ranking system in the US is all about. Though I wish I knew how to translate your points into our league levels. Usually when I introduce myself in any tournament the question is what league I play? Fourth .. but I could make it to the third if I was practicing .. okay ... ; ) Actually something similar to the US system could be interesting in Poland or even Europe ...

Playing or not I don't mind of course to pay for the tickets to watch pros. But here's a funny thing, many of my friends does not like as much watching high level tt as they prefer to play themselves. If it is to be a longer time spend on tt it is usually practice related. We organize those camps during summers with our befriended top polish player (80-90'ties). Please feel invited

Click to expand...

Germany has something that is VERY similar already(TTR), not sure about rest of Europe. No idea how to translate USATT rating into your league levels, since the former is an absolute number and the latter is more of a band of ranks. To give you some idea, if you know TTR rating for some of your league players (Poland is kind of close to Germany, so there must be some cross-play) - just add 350 points and you should get a decent approximation of their USATT rating. As a reference, two Bundesliga teams (Post SV Muhlhausen and ASV Grunwettersbach) just played Joola Teams in November and their players ended up in the range of 2650-2800 USATT - not super accurate, since they did not have a lot of matches, but still something.

pgpg said:

Germany has something that is VERY similar already(TTR), not sure about rest of Europe. No idea how to translate USATT rating into your league levels, since the former is an absolute number and the latter is more of a band of ranks. To give you some idea, if you know TTR rating for some of your league players (Poland is kind of close to Germany, so there must be some cross-play - just add 350 points and you should get a decent approximation of their USATT rating. As a reference, two Bundesliga teams (Post SV Muhlhausen and ASV Grunwettersbach) just played Joola Teams in November and their players ended up in the range of 2650-2800 USATT - not super accurate, since they did not have a lot of matches, but still something.

Click to expand...

I wish someone from Poland would correct me if I'm wrong, but I never heard about the TTR ...

Ok, so players I know (mostly youtube : )
ASV Grunwettersbach: Samuel Walker (2014 WTTTC hero), Masataka Morizono, Ricardo Walther
Post SV Muhlhausen: Daniel Habesohn, Ovidiu Ionescu

Those are 2650 - 2800 ...

Currently first male position in USATT ranking is Kanak Jha (Milpitas, CA) 2708 pts?
But, this is just the top I would need to know a reference for i.e. 1700 points ... hmm.

jawien said:

I wish someone from Poland would correct me if I'm wrong, but I never heard about the TTR ...

Ok, so players I know (mostly youtube : )
ASV Grunwettersbach: Samuel Walker (2014 WTTTC hero), Masataka Morizono, Ricardo Walther
Post SV Muhlhausen: Daniel Habesohn, Ovidiu Ionescu

Those are 2650 - 2800 ...


Currently first male position in USATT ranking is Kanak Jha (Milpitas, CA) 2708 pts?
But, this is just the top I would need to know a reference for i.e. 1700 points ... hmm.

Click to expand...

You can check ratings here:

https://www.teamusa.org/USA-Table-Tennis/Ratings/USATT-Individuals-Ratings

For the people you mentioned (keep in mind, based on only few games):

M.Morizono: 2781
R. Walther: 2801
S.Walker: 2477(!) - shows how inaccurate it can be with only few matches
D. Habesohn: 2655
O.Ionescu: 2669

For someone you might know - Blaszczyk, Lucjan is/was 2764 - that's his rating used for 2017 US Open seeding, somehow can't find him in the system right now...

Kanak Jha is #1 if you only look for US citizens, quite a few Chinese players that are living in the US who are rated higher.

pgpg said:

:
M.Morizono: 2781
R. Walther: 2801
S.Walker: 2477(!) - shows how inaccurate it can be with only few matches
D. Habesohn: 2655
O.Ionescu: 2669


For someone you might know - Blaszczyk, Lucjan is/was 2764 - that's his rating used for 2017 US Open seeding, somehow can't find him in the system right now...
Kanak Jha is #1 if you only look for US citizens, quite a few Chinese players that are living in the US who are rated higher.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I think I have an idea ... I guess if I saw like a lower ranked players would be interesting. I'll see what I can find on yt.

jawien said:

Yeah, I think I have an idea ... I guess if I saw like a lower ranked players would be interesting. I'll see what I can find on yt.

Click to expand...

imo the TTR system is what ITTF should adapt
That is a true recognition of player level by who beat who and who lost against who
and if ITTF doesn't adapt, then many countries should adapt

In Pro circuit, it is fine to do your age - U10, 13, 15, 18, 21 etc
but in your amateur, you rather do it by rating, as 13 year old could out play 21 year old easily - how many sports would this happen? not many, so TT needs to be done differently to other sports

Tony's Table Tennis said:

imo the TTR system is what ITTF should adapt
That is a true recognition of player level by who beat who and who lost against who
and if ITTF doesn't adapt, then many countries should adapt

In Pro circuit, it is fine to do your age - U10, 13, 15, 18, 21 etc
but in your amateur, you rather do it by rating, as 13 year old could out play 21 year old easily - how many sports would this happen? not many, so TT needs to be done differently to other sports

Click to expand...

Do you have any sources in english, how the TTR works?

jawien said:

Do you have any sources in english, how the TTR works?

Click to expand...

I don't have a link for TTR specifically, but IIRC, it is a variant of ELO system (like in chess), so you are gaining/losing points based on your wins/losses, with the amount of points exchanged dependent on the difference in ratings among players: so, if I beat someone who has rating well above mine, I will gain a lot of points (and he will lose the same amount), but if I beat up an absolute beginner, I won't get any.

USATT system is described in all gory detail here:

https://www.teamusa.org/USA-Table-Tennis/Ratings/Rating-System

General info about ELO:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system

Tony's Table Tennis said:

imo the TTR system is what ITTF should adapt
That is a true recognition of player level by who beat who and who lost against who
and if ITTF doesn't adapt, then many countries should adapt

In Pro circuit, it is fine to do your age - U10, 13, 15, 18, 21 etc
but in your amateur, you rather do it by rating, as 13 year old could out play 21 year old easily - how many sports would this happen? not many, so TT needs to be done differently to other sports

Click to expand...

They were using a modified version of it but it has the problem that people maintain their rankings when there is inactivity. This is what they are trying to move away from. In the old system there was a rating and bonus points. The rating was similar to an ELO system.

In tennis they don't use an ELO system or Federer, Nadal, Murray and Djokovic would never leave the top 10. The same with Serena. It all depends onnwhat you are trying to achieve anyone can build an ELO system on their computer and use it to seed players or rank results.

Tony's Table Tennis said:

imo the TTR system is what ITTF should adapt
That is a true recognition of player level by who beat who and who lost against who
and if ITTF doesn't adapt, then many countries should adapt

Click to expand...

I've been thinking how US Open and ranking system fits in your say - table tennis culture ...

I don't know much about US, but an "every day life" of a person involved in tt in Poland i.e. concentrates mainly around the league games. I guess Germany is similar?
In my district there are 14 teams in the fourth league. There is a nice web based system and every team has an account and provides results when being a host. Works really well - so it's quite fun.

The individual tournaments are treated as something additional, at least by the amateur players. More advanced players usually play Nationwide Grand Prix - four events within a year, and then Championships once a year if the qualify. You have points for every tournament, so the system is quite clear and understandable for everybody.

The more I read about Elo ... the more I see how complex it is. TTR does not take player activity into account, plus the organizer has to send the results, they have to be calculated, sometimes with errors. I just have doubts it would be useful for a league based community ...

jawien said:

I've been thinking how US Open and ranking system fits in your say - table tennis culture ...

I don't know much about US, but an "every day life" of a person involved in tt in Poland i.e. concentrates mainly around the league games. I guess Germany is similar?
In my district there are 14 teams in the fourth league. There is a nice web based system and every team has an account and provides results when being a host. Works really well - so it's quite fun.

The individual tournaments are treated as something additional, at least by the amateur players. More advanced players usually play Nationwide Grand Prix - four events within a year, and then Championships once a year if the qualify. You have points for every tournament, so the system is quite clear and understandable for everybody.

The more I read about Elo ... the more I see how complex it is. TTR does not take player activity into account, plus the organizer has to send the results, they have to be calculated, sometimes with errors. I just have doubts it would be useful for a league based community ...

Click to expand...

It probably has limited usefulness to league based community (which most of Europe seems to be) - in the end you can easily compute your win/loss record and call it a day. I see it all the time, when non-US players typically would say "I am 73% player in 2nd division" to describe their level, or something like that.

Very difficult to translate it across districts, regions, and countries, though, and that's how we ended up here in this thread.

Leagues are pretty much non-existent in the US, so it's mostly about tournaments (although within a club you usually know who stands where anyway), and you want to have decent rating in place to ensure accurate seeding and fair competition.

pgpg said:

It probably has limited usefulness to league based community (which most of Europe seems to be) - in the end you can easily compute your win/loss record and call it a day. I see it all the time, when non-US players typically would say "I am 73% player in 2nd division" to describe their level, or something like that.

Very difficult to translate it across districts, regions, and countries, though, and that's how we ended up here in this thread.

Leagues are pretty much non-existent in the US, so it's mostly about tournaments (although within a club you usually know who stands where anyway), and you want to have decent rating in place to ensure accurate seeding and fair competition.

Click to expand...

Exactly! What league I play is the first question than how am I doing there - meaning percentage. "I am 73% player in 2nd division" - I would love it ; )

As how it translates, i.e. your USATT system might also be prone to the locality issues. If players don't mix, than I imagine 1900 pts of a player from California might mean a bit different level than say player from Virginia (just guessing) ?

As someone who has played in US tournaments and is about to play in the French league system, I'd say the European league systems (from amateur to professional teams) provide a strong developmental and constantly competitive structure that is truly lacking in the US and is needed if the USATT ever wants to increase the level of play even more and produce more professional players and make a dent in the ITTF ranking. The European league system is open to all and is affordable (and includes sport insurance in France) since all training and competitions both teams and individuals are paid for, and you train and compete with your team every week, for a chance to increase your individual ranking and for your team to go up a level (District 3, 2, 1, Regional 3,2,1, National... up to Pro), or for yourself to get bumped up to the A or B team within your club... In the US, most everything is individual based (teams included, as they enter single events), you're on your own when you first join a private club, you have to pay for expensive lessons and expensive individual tournaments, and it's almost impossible to play competitively every week. On the other end, I think European federations should also learn something from the USATT's individual open levels tournaments as they are indeed fun festivals no matter their size, and almost have that feel of an ITTF Tour as you can play players from all over the world and there's price money for winning an event.

jawien said:

Exactly! What league I play is the first question than how am I doing there - meaning percentage. "I am 73% player in 2nd division" - I would love it ; )

As how it translates, i.e. your USATT system might also be prone to the locality issues. If players don't mix, than I imagine 1900 pts of a player from California might mean a bit different level than say player from Virginia (just guessing) ?

Click to expand...

Yes, it sure can suffer from the issues you describe (closed community), and there is a widespread belief (somewhat justified, I think) that players in California are rather underrated relative to the rest of US, because they have these very successful junior training programs, but they tend to play each other a lot, so few points can be had (somehow this problem is less pronounced for juniors on the East Coast, but that's another topic). Not a huge difference in the end - there is always a bigger issue of someone who trains A LOT, but plays few tournaments (*cough* kids *cough*) - these cases are treated through adjustment procedure, so no big harm either, besides some hurt feelings from unexpected loss.

US Open/Nationals help in that regard, because a lot of cross-play among regions happens there, and thus creates opportunity to re-calibrate.

thomas.pong said:

As someone who has played in US tournaments and is about to play in the French league system, I'd say the European league systems (from amateur to professional teams) provide a strong developmental and constantly competitive structure that is truly lacking in the US and is needed if the USATT ever wants to increase the level of play even more and produce more professional players and make a dent in the ITTF ranking. The European league system is open to all and is affordable (and includes sport insurance in France) since all training and competitions both teams and individuals are paid for, and you train and compete with your team every week, for a chance to increase your individual ranking and for your team to go up a level (District 3, 2, 1, Regional 3,2,1, National... up to Pro), or for yourself to get bumped up to the A or B team within your club... In the US, most everything is individual based (teams included, as they enter single events), you're on your own when you first join a private club, you have to pay for expensive lessons and expensive individual tournaments, and it's almost impossible to play competitively every week. On the other end, I think European federations should also learn something from the USATT's individual open levels tournaments as they are indeed fun festivals no matter their size, and almost have that feel of an ITTF Tour as you can play players from all over the world and there's price money for winning an event.

Click to expand...

You probably need to elaborate who actually pays for this (facility, training, insurance, coaching, competition..), since in my experience someone has to in the end. If it's a subsidy from government or some other sponsor, then it's all great, but it's not something that can happen magically in the US, for a variety of reasons.

pgpg said:

[...] US Open/Nationals help in that regard, because a lot of cross-play among regions happens there, and thus creates opportunity to re-calibrate.

Click to expand...

thomas.pong said:

[...] I'd say the European league systems (from amateur to professional teams) provide a strong developmental and constantly competitive structure that is truly lacking in the US and is needed if the USATT ever wants to increase the level
[...] On the other end, I think European federations should also learn something from the USATT's individual open levels tournaments as they are indeed fun festivals ..

Click to expand...

The "competitive structure" is what I was missing when thinking how the US system actually looks like. I agree with Thomas that for amateurs or semi pros or event pros the main driving force for being competitive is the league. How the clubs are financed is a different story (I'll wait for Thomas) but a team play is really what motivates people. Individual events and league games evoke quite different emotions.

It's easier to practice together and to organize a match-up between two teams and basically you play against every player in a league ... so you may think about the league as a time and location distributed table tennis festival ... ; ))

jawien said:

Exactly! What league I play is the first question than how am I doing there - meaning percentage. "I am 73% player in 2nd division" - I would love it ; )

As how it translates, i.e. your USATT system might also be prone to the locality issues. If players don't mix, than I imagine 1900 pts of a player from California might mean a bit different level than say player from Virginia (just guessing) ?

Click to expand...

The locality issues are not as serious to me as the dynamics of fielding teams of different strengths when claiming a percentage at a certain level of league. I don't see any reason why a TTR or another ELO-type system won't make such claims more accurate. The USATT as an ELO system as its own limitations but in general, I expect more countries to head in this direction over time.

jawien said:

The "competitive structure" is what I was missing when thinking how the US system actually looks like. I agree with Thomas that for amateurs or semi pros or event pros the main driving force for being competitive is the league. How the clubs are financed is a different story (I'll wait for Thomas) but a team play is really what motivates people. Individual events and league games evoke quite different emotions.

It's easier to practice together and to organize a match-up between two teams and basically you play against every player in a league ... so you may think about the league as a time and location distributed table tennis festival ... ; ))

Click to expand...

America has more sprawl than Europe, that is the biggest problem with team leagues. IT's hard to schedule the travel since most of it is driving and over long distances. If that could be fixed, I suspect team leagues would be more popular.

NextLevel said:

America has more sprawl than Europe, that is the biggest problem with team leagues. IT's hard to schedule the travel since most of it is driving and over long distances. If that could be fixed, I suspect team leagues would be more popular.

Click to expand...

Sprawl is one thing, but player density is another (I don't think of them as being the same). If Philadelphia and Boston had 10X more players, we probably would start seeing more leagues, team-based or otherwise. Hard to do this when you really have at most 1-2 clubs in the area, and it's much more difficult to have East Coast league compared to Boston one.

Judging by Der_Echte's recent posts, Northern California already might have enough players in the area to support a league, let's see how it develops.

pgpg said:

Sprawl is one thing, but player density is another (I don't think of them as being the same). If Philadelphia and Boston had 10X more players, we probably would start seeing more leagues, team-based or otherwise. Hard to do this when you really have at most 1-2 clubs in the area, and it's much more difficult to have East Coast league compared to Boston one.

Judging by Der_Echte's recent posts, Northern California already might have enough players in the area to support a league, let's see how it develops.

Click to expand...

Ok, so would you be able to name one city and estimate how many players are there? Just to have an idea.

pgpg said:

Sprawl is one thing, but player density is another (I don't think of them as being the same). If Philadelphia and Boston had 10X more players, we probably would start seeing more leagues, team-based or otherwise. Hard to do this when you really have at most 1-2 clubs in the area, and it's much more difficult to have East Coast league compared to Boston one.

Judging by Der_Echte's recent posts, Northern California already might have enough players in the area to support a league, let's see how it develops.

Click to expand...

\

The places where you would expect leagues right now are NY, DC and CA (Silicon Valley, not LA per se). But even in those cases, like NY and DC, some of the player density is driven by neighboring states and commuters.