Carbon blades - are they better?

Grahamfbatts said:

Can anyone point me towards any evidence that carbon blades are superior to all-wood? I'm looking for independent scientific data rather than subjective opinions. Thanks for any help.

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My two cents, I think allwood blade ( 5 plies preferably)is better for developing technique and perfect stroke because the flexibility and vibration, while the carbon allows get a stiffer blade not necessarily it is ( eg DWSC) always, some people prefer stay back with allwood and other after allwood 5 change to 7 or composite, including carbon. So it's better it depends your choice and experience to master the blade.

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“Numbers” for blades? Since even with carbon blades, most of the blade is wood and wood density varies, if you tested 20 Viscaria and they were all different weights, each one would give you different numbers. [emoji2]

With rubbers of the same kind and thickness, there are also variations. This is because, sometimes, the sponge weighs a little more, sometimes the sponge weighs a little less, some the sponge is very slightly harder or softer.

So you can have a T05 2.1 that is harder/softer and or weighs more/less within a range.

This is why some companies even list a range for the hardness of the sponge rather than an exact figure. And why pros often choose not only a specific rubber but that rubber in a specific hardness AND weight.

And then there is the point Tony made: with different qualities of contact (deeper, thinner, more brush, more direct impact), and lower level players whose quality of contact is inconsistent and different every time. And higher level players whose quality of contact is much, much more consistent and who have the skill to vary the kind of contact for different kinds of shots.

As a result of all these factors, it would be hard to regulate these things. Especially since there are no stated limits on the things being measured.

And then there is the issue that a number for something like “control” is totally misleading. A rubber that is able to spin the ball more will be easier to control for someone who is highly skilled at spinning the ball. Because spin allows you to control your shots and land them on the table more consistently. However, in the hands of someone who is not so skilled at spinning the ball, a very spinny rubber will also be more reactive to incoming spin and will therefore be harder to control.

Or, another example: from a certain standpoint, antispin type rubbers are easy to control for people who don’t read and compensate for spin well. And for a looper, antispin would make looping much harder to control.

So, perhaps there is a flaw in how we want to understand TT equipment rather than a flaw in the equipment or the way it is “rated”. I mean, what do those numbers actually mean? [emoji2]


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dominus7 said:

In 2005 the ball was made of celluloid, the ball is a factor too.

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Excellent. This is actual information that we could use to qualify the term better:

Many pros have found that ALC type composite blades have been more effective for them at the top levels of play since they allow a high level player to use equipment that is faster without a significant loss of control. And with the slower 40+ Poly ball, this has been important for many top pros.

One thing I notice is that for a number of the pros whose game revolves more around spin than speed, these players are often still using all wood blades.

So, hypothesis: composite ALC blades are better for more aggressive offensive play at the top levels. And all wood blades seem to be more useful to an allround style of play that uses more spin than power and more spin variation.

However, for players of intermediate level or lower, the issues may be different.


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UpSideDownCarl said:

In 2005 8 of the top 10 Pros used all wood blades. Were all wood blades somehow better back then? [emoji2]


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I think it is also because of the new 40+ plastic balls. When I started playing, I bought a 5-ply Petr Korbel, because it was a popular choice for beginners. But my coach told me with the new ball, the 5-ply all-wood blade may not be enough anymore, I should at least using the 7-ply wood blade. And based on my experience of using the Petr Korbel, and DHS PG7, I do feel PG7 gives me better feeling and feedback when I am hitting the ball.

UpSideDownCarl said:

Many pros have found that ALC type composite blades have been more effective for them [...]

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dragonflame said:

And based on my experience of using the Petr Korbel, and DHS PG7, I do feel PG7 gives me better feeling and feedback when I am hitting the ball.

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I have the impression the ZLC's are becoming popular nowadays. Like ZJK SZLC used by Tomokazu or Chun Ting Wong I believe are using this blade, Apolonia his own version. I had a chance to try SZLC and the sweep spot it provides is really impressive + the control/feeling are still exceptional.
Also ZLF's in general will give you more of this woody feel then ALC's. My more advanced friends i.e. moved from Korbel to TB ZLF.

dragonflame said:

I think it is also because of the new 40+ plastic balls. When I started playing, I bought a 5-ply Petr Korbel, because it was a popular choice for beginners. But my coach told me with the new ball, the 5-ply all-wood blade may not be enough anymore, I should at least using the 7-ply wood blade. And based on my experience of using the Petr Korbel, and DHS PG7, I do feel PG7 gives me better feeling and feedback when I am hitting the ball.

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I think that is the PG7 vs the Korbel, the Korbel is relatively thick and stiff even for a 5 ply blade and the PG7 is relatively flexy for a 7ply. I never liked the PG7 but I never played with it when I got better as a player, for a plastic ball 5 ply, the Korbel is not a bad choice, though there is the Korbel SK7 as well.

The most important thing is that you feel the blade as a linear response to your hand when you make the shots you need to make, this can take longer than you need it to. And the pros who need to hit the ball past each other at distances from the table where most people cannot play from need what we don't obviously need.

I do find that I like thinner blades and it is hard to find a blade as fast as I would like it as thin as I would like it and be all wood. So I tend to like thin composite blades that are fairly fast but with a softer feeling - Nexy has a grip that I really like so I have used the Nexy Calix II and the Tibhar Inca (made by Nexy). They have ALC or thin carbon, just enough to give me power when I drive the ball but not enough to make me feel like the ball is flying off before I hit it.

jawien said:

I have the impression the ZLC's are becoming popular nowadays. Like ZJK SZLC used by Tomokazu or Chun Ting Wong I believe are using this blade, Apolonia his own version. I had a chance to try SZLC and the sweep spot it provides is really impressive + the control/feeling are still exceptional.
Also ZLF's in general will give you more of this woody feel then ALC's. My more advanced friends i.e. moved from Korbel to TB ZLF.

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If you actually research the facts and trends, most pros who choose carbon use ALC (or similar across other manufacturers). Some choose ZLC, when they do, they mostly go for Inner ZLC. Tomokazu uses a custom ALC blade and the handle looks like any of the 4 ZJK blades made by Butterfly, except with no badges.

thomas.pong said:

Mizutani Jun is the only top pro who uses SZLC.

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I stopped paying attention to this stuff a few years ago. I remember when the JM SZLC first came out JM used it for 3 tournaments and then went back to the regular.

Did he switch back to the SZLC and stay with it?


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UpSideDownCarl said:

I stopped paying attention to this stuff a few years ago. I remember when the JM SZLC first came out JM used it for 3 tournaments and then went back to the regular.

Did he switch back to the SZLC and stay with it?


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It's hard to keep up! Lol. You're right, he actually plays with the regular MJ ZLC, Butterfly USA had me fooled, but Butterfly JP lists it correctly. So I don't think anyone in the ITTF Top 100 or 200 plays actually plays with SZLC...

thomas.pong said:

It's hard to keep up! Lol. You're right, he actually plays with the regular MJ ZLC, Butterfly USA had me fooled, but Butterfly JP lists it correctly. So I don't think anyone in the ITTF Top 100 or 200 plays actually plays with SZLC...

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A friend of mine who is pretty high level (peaked in the 2600s) told me the SZLCs he tried were not good for his game because, they are fine close to the table but, as you were further away and applied more impact to your shots the SZLC was very non-linear and gave much less control.

I am not sure this would come into play with someone at my level. But someone who can apply that kind of penetrating impact into the ball may not want the effects the SZLC weave produces.

I could be wrong. I don’t really know. But I have a feeling that the SZLC blades are not really something most top pros would want.


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UpSideDownCarl said:

A friend of mine who is pretty high level (peaked in the 2600s) told me the SZLCs he tried were not good for his game because, they are fine close to the table but, as you were further away and applied more impact to your shots the SZLC was very non-linear and gave much less control.

I am not sure this would come into play with someone at my level. But someone who can apply that kind of penetrating impact into the ball may not want the effects the SZLC weave produces.

I could be wrong. I don’t really know. But I have a feeling that the SZLC blades are not really something most top pros would want.


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My thought exactly!

Michael Landers, correct? If so, you've related this story to me before and had then finished convincing me on the topic of SZLC's actual worth at the professional level!

thomas.pong said:

My thought exactly!

Michael Landers, correct? If so, you've related this story to me before and had then finished convincing me on the topic of SZLC's actual worth at the professional level!

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Yep. I repeat myself. Hahaha.

But I think that may explain why those SZLC blades don’t get used much at the top levels. I am guessing that some of those guys have tried them and realized what Landers explained to me.

His actual words about the ZJK SZLC was that “it is unplayable!” [emoji2]

But I was trying to downplay how he described it.

And I totally agree with your assessment of how most of the top players who use ZLC use a blade where the composite layer is deeper. Whereas, the guys who use a composite ply under the top ply are mostly using an ALC type blades.


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And the big exception I can think of with ZLC is JM who is using a ZLC blade with a Limba top ply. So, softer top ply, harder composite material. Yes, Zylon is a little harder than Arylate.


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UpSideDownCarl said:

Yep. I repeat myself. Hahaha.

But I think that may explain why those SZLC blades don’t get used much at the top levels. I am guessing that some of those guys have tried them and realized what Landers explained to me.

His actual words about the ZJK SZLC was that “it is unplayable!” [emoji2]

But I was trying to downplay how he described it.

And I totally agree with your assessment of how most of the top players who use ZLC use a blade where the composite layer is deeper. Whereas, the guys who use a composite ply under the top ply are mostly using an ALC type blades.


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UpSideDownCarl said:

And the big exception I can think of with ZLC is JM who is using a ZLC blade with a Limba top ply. So, softer top ply, harder composite material. Yes, Zylon is a little harder than Arylate.


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Yes, yes and yes!

I'm a very average player, but I've tried enough blades to say that among carbon blades, ALC and Inner ZLC feel better and easier than Outer ZLC.
And while Outer ZLC brings a lot of power, it requires a lot of arm on the FH, while it feels a lot better on the BH and seems to generate the power on its own.