Carbon blades - are they better?

says Spin and more spin.
says Spin and more spin.
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Okay, let’s see.

If the links vvk1 provided give you what you were looking for, then that is good. And you don’t need more.

The rest of what I will write will explain the same thing a few others explained. Perhaps this will help make something a little clearer though.

So, since the terms better, and superior are relative terms, one would need to know how this term is qualified. Not just better than what, but better for what? Better in what ways.

Let’s see if I can give some examples that are related to TT blades.

For a beginner, it is generally BETTER to use an all wood blade that is 5 plies and has decent flex and feeling that is not too fast: like All+ to Off- in speed or slower.

Why is this generally better for a beginner: the slower all wood blade gives a player who has not yet developed the technique for contacting the ball for spin more control. The flex and added ability to feel the ball helps the player feel when contact was good because it feels good but it also punishes poor technique because on bad contact IT FEELS BAD. Whereas, a good carbon blade can mask poor contact and still produce an okay shot in spite suboptimal technique.

The wood blade allowing you to feel more also helps a learning player develop the ability to hold the ball on the rubber (topsheet and sponge) for longer which helps that developing player learning how to generate more spin.

For a beginner without a coach, or an adult who is learning the sport, these things can be important. However, for a child who is newer to TT who has a good coach, the coaches training could make these details much less important in modern play.

However, in some ways, a child beginner with a good coach may still learn to spin the ball effectively faster with an all wood blade than with a carbon blade.

For a high level player with well established good technique who knows how to spin the ball well, some of the ALC composite blades may be better than all wood blades because they allow you to obtain more speed from the blade without a significant loss of spin.

These ALC blades, in the hands of a more beginner player might slow their development. Whereas, in the hands of a player with decently developed technique, they may allow faster shots without significant loss of spin which also means: without significant loss of control.

So, one of the actual issues is: better for whom? better for what purpose?

And then there is simply personal preference. And no matter what data you look at, some players are going to prefer composite blades and other people are going to prefer all wood blades. So you can’t really say a composite blade will be better for someone who does not like composite blades.

Hopefully that gives a better picture of what caused a couple of people to have issue with the terms better and superior.

Good luck in your quest for data on what the word best means to different people with different needs. [emoji2]


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy
 
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As a newbie to this forum I must say I am hugely impressed with the volume and quality of responses to my question this morning. Not just that, but also the fact that the comments have come from about nine different countries. All that tells me two things very clearly. Firstly, that table tennis as a sport is in a very healthy state world wide, and secondly that this site is brilliant! I used to participate a lot in another forum but I have been away from it for a while, as I spend many hours every week coaching and doing other stuff for my TT club.
 
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As a newbie to this forum I must say I am hugely impressed with the volume and quality of responses to my question this morning. Not just that, but also the fact that the comments have come from about nine different countries. All that tells me two things very clearly. Firstly, that table tennis as a sport is in a very healthy state world wide, and secondly that this site is brilliant! I used to participate a lot in another forum but I have been away from it for a while, as I spend many hours every week coaching and doing other stuff for my TT club.
Thank you for the kind words and let me bid you welcome to the site Grahambatts! There are a lot of members here that can give qualified, but also quality answers. Some of them have already posted in your thread, but there are many others that are helpful as well. To your question about what is better? There is not really an answer where you can put an equal sign to it. Most comes down to level, personal preference and playing style. For instance if I favor a carbon blade a defense player would not necessarily favor the same blade. Hope you get my point and good luck using the forum.
 

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I don't remember you using an all wood blade when I first met you. And I also remember you using a 1 ply hinoki for a while before a coach forced you to use an All wood 5 ply ALL+ to play (and you have stuck with them ever since). Acquired taste based on success in your most intensive training period?

It's true that I used a TB ZLF for more than a year. Zylon doesn't have the "frying pan" feel that I get from ALC and ZLC blades. Before and since I have played various all-wood blades. One of those was an american hinoki (which is not hinoki) one ply, albeit a *very* customized one at about 70 gms. It felt unique, not like a normal five-ply wood, but certainly closer to that feeling than to a carbon composite.

I have tried the most popular carbon blades - viscaria, TBS, TB ALC and ZLC, and lots of others. They just feel horrible to me. I can play with them at basically the same level as I do with my ALL blade. I just don't like them. The ones with carbon next to the inner ply feel better. I don't think using a ZLF blade for a while invalidates my statement that carbon blades feel bad to me. Nor does having a coach make me switch from a weird all-wood blade to a normal all-wood blade. The point is, it's still all wood. I had already moved on (down?) from the ZLF on my own.

What I have never tried is a really slow carbon blade, whatever that would be, maybe a WSC or Ma Lin soft carbon. That might feel better, and it could be the speed that bothers me and not the materials. But I doubt it.
 
says I would recommend all wood. Samsonov Alpha sgs is the...
says I would recommend all wood. Samsonov Alpha sgs is the...
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Evidence? Sure: all notable pros use carbon blades

Btw i found zlf to be a lot more problematic than carbon. It plays really crappy with certain rubbers and i couldnt be arsed to test it more. To me it felt weird. I like the innerforce style carbon blade a lot more
 
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says Spin and more spin.
says Spin and more spin.
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Evidence? Sure: all notable pros use carbon blades

Btw i found zlf to be a lot more problematic than carbon. It plays really crappy with certain rubbers and i couldnt be arsed to test it more. To me it felt weird. I like the innerforce style carbon blade a lot more

In 2005 8 of the top 10 Pros used all wood blades. Were all wood blades somehow better back then? [emoji2]


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Evidence? Sure: all notable pros use carbon blades

Btw i found zlf to be a lot more problematic than carbon. It plays really crappy with certain rubbers and i couldnt be arsed to test it more. To me it felt weird. I like the innerforce style carbon blade a lot more

Shibaev is not a notable pro? Neither is Lebesson or Gauzy? Xu Xin was virtually forced to use carbon and he used wood until very recently.
 
says I would recommend all wood. Samsonov Alpha sgs is the...
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Shibaev is not a notable pro? Neither is Lebesson or Gauzy? Xu Xin was virtually forced to use carbon and he used wood until very recently.

You're absolutely right (Except probably about xu xin). Thank you for pointing out the utter statistical insignificance (and indeed anomaly) of pros who DON'T use carbon blades and making my point for me! :)
 
says STAX X9000 is the BEST!
I hate the feel of carbon blades, hate it. But what to me signals playing with a frying pan, to others signals large sweet spot.
If you haven't tried blades with two outer layers of wood over the carbon layer, then I recommend you to try... It's just that I had the same opinion about carbon blades before I tried Innerforce Layer ALC, now I'm playing Apolonia ZLC (also uses Innerforce technology) which has "softer" feel than Innerforce Layer ALC and I quite happy with this blade :eek: (except the fact that I still haven't found any rubber that will play as good as tenergy 05 on this blade... tenergy is great, but the Price is killing me :( ).
 
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I’d like to share some comments from Chinese National team’s coach Qin Zhiqian, primary coach of Ma Long. When he was asked this question, he said right now it’ about 50/50 uses of wood vs carbon in chines national team. In the past definitely wood blades. He said the moment of carbon blades hitting the ball, they are faster than wood. But wood blades is a little bit more powerful and has better control. The players always try different blades and find whichever felt best.

Sorry my English is not that good and I just tried to translate what he said.

But then again this is considered "subjective" and not "scientific"
Even though this is coming from someone who have played TT all his life and is one of the best coaches in the world

I would trust QZQ over any data any day

It is true that with ITTF slowly the ball down over the decades, equipment vendors are speeding up the equipments
CNT has indeed migrated over to more carbon over wood, especially the women's team where the ration was more 80/20 to wood when the mens were still 50/50

Then another coach/expert said that carbon is really only for high level of play (same as max sponge rubbers)
This high level basically means - some one who plays TT professionally. I think equipment sellers don't like this comment :p
 
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Evidence? Sure: all notable pros use carbon blades

Btw i found zlf to be a lot more problematic than carbon. It plays really crappy with certain rubbers and i couldnt be arsed to test it more. To me it felt weird. I like the innerforce style carbon blade a lot more

Evidence number 2
of all the carbon pro users - they are all pros
forum members are majority not pros
Can't compare apples with apples
Amateur/lower level players shouldn't be using fast equipment
 
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Evidence number 2
of all the carbon pro users - they are all pros
forum members are majority not pros
Can't compare apples with apples
Amateur/lower level players shouldn't be using fast equipment

i think your statement needs a certain premise. IF you play serious and take it for real and want to become as best as you can, a pro. Then i agree with you and equipment should very carefully adjusted to support someones developement and not hinder it.

But not everyone is playing with such goals in mind, maybe the vast majority of all Players worldwide are just so called "recreational" players, playing for fun and so on. For those i think it is ok to get whatever they want to play with
 
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i think your statement needs a certain premise. IF you play serious and take it for real and want to become as best as you can, a pro. Then i agree with you and equipment should very carefully adjusted to support someones developement and not hinder it.

But not everyone is playing with such goals in mind, maybe the vast majority of all Players worldwide are just so called "recreational" players, playing for fun and so on. For those i think it is ok to get whatever they want to play with

there we go

so what the pros use does not equal it is equally good for what the recreational players use
 
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My attempt to summarise what I have learned from the many helpful responses to my original question. I shouldn't be thinking about carbon blades being "better" or "worse" but it's a question of individual preference. A player's preference may be influenced by the type of shots they tend to play and also their level. A follow up question, which hopefully will still be on-topic enough. Is the sport of table tennis helped by having so many different varieties of racket/paddle available? I did a quick tour of four major UK-based online retailers and they all had more than 100 different rackets. The greatest number was more than 200 with prices up to £330. Should we have (A) more standardisation, (B) more variety than there is now, or (C) just let the manufacturers do whatever they like?
 
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My attempt to summarise what I have learned from the many helpful responses to my original question. I shouldn't be thinking about carbon blades being "better" or "worse" but it's a question of individual preference. A player's preference may be influenced by the type of shots they tend to play and also their level. A follow up question, which hopefully will still be on-topic enough. Is the sport of table tennis helped by having so many different varieties of racket/paddle available? I did a quick tour of four major UK-based online retailers and they all had more than 100 different rackets. The greatest number was more than 200 with prices up to £330. Should we have (A) more standardisation, (B) more variety than there is now, or (C) just let the manufacturers do whatever they like?


There is maybe like 30+ brands of blades (I won't call it racket or paddle, as that is recreational range, we should call it blades + rubber + rubber)
Say each brand only have 10 models of blades in UK
that is 300 blades
Now, lets say there is equally the same amount of rubbers (so also 300 rubbers)
so the combination possibilities is 300x300x300 right? That is a good 27 million combination possibilities (and I still haven't taken into consider of sponge hardness options or sponge thickness options on rubbers)

With your questions of A/B/C this is based on strategies of companies (manufacturer as 1 tier, then you get reseller as another tier)
If you look at Apple - limited models of products with 1 or 2 options per product model
Competitor - have lots of models and lots of options per model
Is Apple the winner? market share? market value? best strategy? can't really say

You can call it "they doing what ever they want", but that is there problem
You as a consumer can decide what you want.
I'm not sure what you are trying to say when you suggest A/B/C, as that is the uniqueness of table tennis.
Table Tennis equipment is very complex, more complex than your Apple products
 
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IMHO, having a great variety of equipment choices is good for the players. However, there is one area where the current situation is completely inadequate - complete lack of standardized, objective and independently verifiable data on how rubbers and blades actually perform. The spin/speed/control/feedback/etc numbers provided by equipment vendors are meaningless and often almost seem random.

E.g., here is one webshop's rating of recent Stiga rubbers.

Speed/Control/Spin
Mantra M - 115/89/116
Genesis M - 114/91/115
Airoc Astro M - 114/90/114
Airoc M - 110/90/100
Calibra Tour M - 107/93/103
Magna Tx2 - 107/96/103


Can anyone explain to me how one is supposed to choose between the first 3 rubbers or the last 3 based on this? There is no way a human can tell the difference of less than 1% in any of these indicators. And yet online reviews by respected forum members claim dramatic increases in control/speed/spin as you go up the list. Or does anyone really believe that increase of "spin" from 103 to 116 justify doubling of the price?

Rant off.

I really think that ITTF must step in and officially test equipment as part of ITTF logo certification and publish relevant technical data.
 
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IMHO, having a great variety of equipment choices is good for the players. However, there is one area where the current situation is completely inadequate - complete lack of standardized, objective and independently verifiable data on how rubbers and blades actually perform. The spin/speed/control/feedback/etc numbers provided by equipment vendors are meaningless and often almost seem random.

E.g., here is one webshop's rating of recent Stiga rubbers.

Speed/Control/Spin
Mantra M - 115/89/116
Genesis M - 114/91/115
Airoc Astro M - 114/90/114
Airoc M - 110/90/100
Calibra Tour M - 107/93/103
Magna Tx2 - 107/96/103


Can anyone explain to me how one is supposed to choose between the first 3 rubbers or the last 3 based on this? There is no way a human can tell the difference of less than 1% in any of these indicators. And yet online reviews by respected forum members claim dramatic increases in control/speed/spin as you go up the list. Or does anyone really believe that increase of "spin" from 103 to 116 justify doubling of the price?

Rant off.

I really think that ITTF must step in and officially test equipment as part of ITTF logo certification and publish relevant technical data.

easier said than done. i don't think the ittf will ever have the resources to do this.
 
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All ITTF needs to do is develop the standardized tests, and require equipment vendors to submit test results for any new equipment as part of the certification process. And then perform random tests and ban vendors who lie. Nothing that hasn't been done before in other industries. This is really not rocket science.
 
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