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1.Focus on the ball peripheral vision does the rest and gives you hints when the server is predictable. Try to understand how he is serving, very few players are good servers because it is mostly about talent creativity and fantasy.
2. Check where the ball is touching the paddle, I focus very much on that and I take a ''snapshot'' of the contact point which makes me decide immediately what to do with the serve.
3. Focus on sound, extremely crucial also to ''feel' the amount of spin imparted , close your eyes or turn your back when ur training mate is serving and try to guess how much spin there is on the ball (practice full underspin to no spin variations)
Those 3 are fundamental, after u master those then it is a mater of how comfortable and familiar u are with the opponent and his routines
says
I would recommend all wood.
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I think it is better to start with short serves because it makes you develop good habits which are also necessary in the rest of the game and which are easier to develop when practicing short-serve-return techniques. Most importantly getting your whole body in position quickly, not moving your 'structure' forward during the shot or ur ball goes out or in the net. Also leaning into the table which improves pushes a lot in general and forces low body position. It also gives very very defined goal in the return; to have the ball land an inch behind the net etc, and it's very fun in training to have very clearly defined goals like this, which really aren't very hard to achieve.
I think if you start with fast long serves first it's not as easy to build these good habits, but I suppose yes it is personal preference ultimately. Learning to be measured and precise with body movement when you have fast balls coming at you is harder, I think.
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What level.have you played or coached at? Is this how your coach taught it to you? Just curious.
says
I would recommend all wood.
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I think arguments should be judged only on their own merit and so i dont answer that. Also it is a matter of privacy.
If I volunteered that information it would color your consideration of my words and I dont think thats good.
If you can consider what i write as it is and discuss or argue against it i am always willing, out of love for the sport.
I'm sorry if that does not satisfy you
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Understood. I think in general that giving TT advice needs a certain level of experience and lots of things people say should take into account the level of the person they are giving advice too. Too often, I have read many internet experts give lots of advice without being willing to share how they arrived at this advice.
I think that your level will and should color my consideration of your advice. My level is 2000 USATT and I don't pretend or profess to seriously coach players above that level. A lot of my experience is mostly of value because I improved mostly as an adult and I have insight into the challenges that an adult learner faces which are not quite the same as those faced by someone who played this game as junior. That said, my game and style has a lot of limitations for a variety of reasons and I cannot pretend to know everything though I have worked with high level coaches.
A lot of what you write doesn't sound like the kinds of insights that come from someone who has seriously tried to help other people, especially adults, improve. I could be quite wrong, but that is my impression. That's why I am asking what I am asking. Good coaches disagree all the time, but it helps to know that the person you are disagree with is a coach.
Arguments being judged on their own merits makes it sound like TT is the kind of sport where all advice is correct without regard for the specific player. I think experience coaching disabuses one of such notions. One begins to realize that given the limitations of players who do not train a certain way, level and style appropriate advice is very important.
says
I would recommend all wood.
Samsonov Alpha sgs is the...
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Then we are entirely in agreement.
There is a lot of advice out there, and specifically in threads where people are actively soliciting advice i think it is worthwhile to share what you can. But of course some advice may be entirely unhelpful for a specific person while good for another.
I think my advice here was suitable for the level of the question and im sure it is good in general but of course it is hard to understand without a coach to guide and scrutinize the exact execution of it. Just saying "return the ball short" doesnt magically hone the skill.
And of course i have no idea, perhaps the player is older and with knee problems etc and cant execute it. So the advice is general.
Thats the nature of such a forum i think. It is somewhat non specific. Unless everyone record themselves and share it is impossible to be exact but privacy is a concern shared by many, and ultimately, if many of us answer a question, it is likely that the person with the question will end up with some advice that suits him.
There is a lot of advice out there, and specifically in threads where people are actively soliciting advice i think it is worthwhile to share what you can. But of course some advice may be entirely unhelpful for a specific person while good for another.
I think my advice here was suitable for the level of the question and im sure it is good in general but of course it is hard to understand without a coach to guide and scrutinize the exact execution of it. Just saying "return the ball short" doesnt magically hone the skill.
And of course i have no idea, perhaps the player is older and with knee problems etc and cant execute it. So the advice is general.
Thats the nature of such a forum i think. It is somewhat non specific. Unless everyone record themselves and share it is impossible to be exact but privacy is a concern shared by many, and ultimately, if many of us answer a question, it is likely that the person with the question will end up with some advice that suits him.
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I doubt we are entirely in agreement when you post advice that I have never heard a good coach recommend and consider it level appropriate for a player who I am fairly sure is below my playing level.
Wanting to maintain privacy is fine but it makes no sense to be so quick to offer advice to people if you are not willing to at least share some of the experience that supports it. There are players on this forum that many of us have never seen play before and whose names most of us will never know but who at least have provided enough evidence of their level of play for us to be confident that their background supports the advice they give. You have often given a lot of advice that I have considered dubious and usually it's not a big deal unless you continue to do it and at some point, people start taking people like you seriously (as I once did when I first got on the internet) without being able to tell when someone actually had insight into what solves their problems. People like you provided advice that sent me the wrong way and had me debating stupidly with my coaches sometimes. Later when I found out their level of play, I realized why.
In any case, feel free to continue to offer advice. But I am very doubtful that you really know what you are talking about when you write a lot of the things you write.
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says
I would recommend all wood.
Samsonov Alpha sgs is the...
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Perhaps we have known different coaches and obviously we have different methodologies. I however have no need to criticize yours.
Like I said, if you find something in specific dubious you can ask about it if you want and I will explain my meaning regarding the matter itself.
I have no wish to pander to the antagonistic facet of your postings though i am fine with your doubts.
Like I said, if you find something in specific dubious you can ask about it if you want and I will explain my meaning regarding the matter itself.
I have no wish to pander to the antagonistic facet of your postings though i am fine with your doubts.
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says
Spin and more spin.
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It is true. There are often times when someone on the forums is making posts offering information and advice and trying to make it sound like they know what they are talking about. And then you see footage of them playing and it is kind of embarrassing that the person was even trying to give technique or training advice.
Sometimes, when someone has posted footage of themselves playing TT, and then they are giving advice on technique and training skills, the way they present is much more careful and they are much more mindful of considering the person they are giving advice to, than when someone is going out of their way to not show footage of their own play while trying to give advice to others.
Sometimes, when someone has posted footage of themselves playing TT, and then they are giving advice on technique and training skills, the way they present is much more careful and they are much more mindful of considering the person they are giving advice to, than when someone is going out of their way to not show footage of their own play while trying to give advice to others.
says
Spin and more spin.
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Spin and more spin.
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Hey, just for comedy NextLevel: SmashFan's methods for training were totally crazy. When he would train, all he would ever train was flipping everything:
Short serve->Flip wide angle->attack the flip like it is your third ball attack->counterloop rally->back to top.
Not many people would have gotten so good from his training. But he sure did. hahaha.
This coach from Jamaica (Chinese Jamaican), Erol Young, was SmashFan's coach. That was how he trained people. Every so often someone would get good and jump in level from how he trained. But most people went sideways or backwards.
When he was younger Erol trained Tahl and Dave Fernandez. Back when those guys were juvenile delinquents. hahaha.
Short serve->Flip wide angle->attack the flip like it is your third ball attack->counterloop rally->back to top.
Not many people would have gotten so good from his training. But he sure did. hahaha.
This coach from Jamaica (Chinese Jamaican), Erol Young, was SmashFan's coach. That was how he trained people. Every so often someone would get good and jump in level from how he trained. But most people went sideways or backwards.
When he was younger Erol trained Tahl and Dave Fernandez. Back when those guys were juvenile delinquents. hahaha.
says
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Sometimes, forum members are just enthusiastic to contribute, whether they are at a level or not, it is a fact, I was in that boat too, enthusiastically writing posts when I was barely USA average club level.
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There are over a dozen criteria you could focus on to get an idea about the incoming service. While it could be helpful to actually focus on single criteria for learning purposes, advanced players usually don't do that anymore but more have a good eye for the service as a whole thing. They perceive critical points automatically and unconsciously. I only have a look at single criteria when I am confronted with a service where my receive failed in an unexpected way multiple times.
- you can have a look at the server's position to get an idea about possible angles
- the higher the ball toss the more spin is possible in theory. however, this is only valid for good players. beginners don't have the timing you need to serve a high ball toss with quality. never follow the ball toss with your eyes.
- contact point ball-racket should be a main criteria to have a look at. Where does he hit the ball (gives you an idea of possible spin)? How much does the handle move (gives you an idea of amount of spin)? What is his service grip (amount of spin / possible services)? Which parts of his racket are visible to you as a receiver (possible spin variation)? etc.
- Position of the server's ellbow could give you a hint about incoming spin. If it is low it should be very hard to serve with topspin for example.
- contact ball-table on the server's side. Gives you an idea about length, spin, angle etc. The ball's bounce gives you more insight to that. Also socond bounce on your half of the table.
- You could have a look at the ball's stamp to get an idea about amount of spin and possibly even spin variation.
And a few things more.
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Ultimately I was/am asking what YOU personally focus on so it doesn't matter too much what lvl of player you are. I get everyone's points and I thank each and everyone of you for the tips and replies.
I am not new to TT but I have been out the game for so long and haven't put any time or effort into this part of the game yet and for the first time I found myself stuck and a bit frustrated for losing 4-6 points purely on service receive, fair play the opponents were of a Premier local league standard which right now is not my lvl. Although it was never a strong point in my game anyway.
I put my youtube link up in the status thing above my picture if anyone wants to have a look. It was back in 2011 though and I believe I stopped playing then or in 2012 can't remember. What I can say is my open game is actually better than this now, and the opening spin ups faster, I can actually BH loop now too lol. But it should give you a grasp on my lvl of play
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From what I figured so far on OP question there are 2 ways on receiving service.
For example lets take Ma Long and Zhang Jike.
1st method -Ma Long will mostly try to neutralize the incoming spinn and make a good placement on the table.
2nd method -Zhang Jike would mostly try to attack every serve to the extent that would even receive with banana in deep FH corner.
So for the 1st method its quite easy to explain, all one needs is really focus only on contact point and nothing else, the toss or the after motion,
and then touch the ball in exactly same space where server contacted it.
If its
underspinn, just under the ball obviously,
sidespinn, on the side that server touched
topspinn, close the racket angle
and all of the combinations of top 3 side-under, side-top and so on.
Of course you still need to judge the amount of spinn and read the contact point and react in time so its not that easy as I wrote it but sure helps a lot.
There is really good video of this method demonstrated by Oh Sang Eun posted by Der_Echte and translated form korean in ooak forum,
Oh Sang says its like acting as a mirror, thats a concept that was easy for me to remember.
For the 2nd method one obviously still need to figure out contact point, predict the flight path, react in time, and attack with GREATER spinn than that one that was produced by server. This obviously needs far greater skill and much more training....
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There is a video of a top Chinese female coach on ITTF youtube chanel where she touches the subject,
I was reminded of it by UpSideDownCarl's comment on SmashFan's training.
She claims that coaches in China at very early age decide on one's receiving tactics based on their feeling for the ball, and are coached from the begining to either calm&place the ball like Ma Long or atack like Zhang Jike.
So maybe that the basis for SmashFan's training, maybe poor feeling for the ball or very good feeling for attacking the ball, or just coaches preference
For example lets take Ma Long and Zhang Jike.
1st method -Ma Long will mostly try to neutralize the incoming spinn and make a good placement on the table.
2nd method -Zhang Jike would mostly try to attack every serve to the extent that would even receive with banana in deep FH corner.
So for the 1st method its quite easy to explain, all one needs is really focus only on contact point and nothing else, the toss or the after motion,
and then touch the ball in exactly same space where server contacted it.
If its
underspinn, just under the ball obviously,
sidespinn, on the side that server touched
topspinn, close the racket angle
and all of the combinations of top 3 side-under, side-top and so on.
Of course you still need to judge the amount of spinn and read the contact point and react in time so its not that easy as I wrote it but sure helps a lot.
There is really good video of this method demonstrated by Oh Sang Eun posted by Der_Echte and translated form korean in ooak forum,
Oh Sang says its like acting as a mirror, thats a concept that was easy for me to remember.
For the 2nd method one obviously still need to figure out contact point, predict the flight path, react in time, and attack with GREATER spinn than that one that was produced by server. This obviously needs far greater skill and much more training....
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is a video of a top Chinese female coach on ITTF youtube chanel where she touches the subject,
I was reminded of it by UpSideDownCarl's comment on SmashFan's training.
She claims that coaches in China at very early age decide on one's receiving tactics based on their feeling for the ball, and are coached from the begining to either calm&place the ball like Ma Long or atack like Zhang Jike.
So maybe that the basis for SmashFan's training, maybe poor feeling for the ball or very good feeling for attacking the ball, or just coaches preference
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From what I figured so far on OP question there are 2 ways on receiving service.
For example lets take Ma Long and Zhang Jike.
1st method -Ma Long will mostly try to neutralize the incoming spinn and make a good placement on the table.
2nd method -Zhang Jike would mostly try to attack every serve to the extent that would even receive with banana in deep FH corner.
So for the 1st method its quite easy to explain, all one needs is really focus only on contact point and nothing else, the toss or the after motion,
and then touch the ball in exactly same space where server contacted it.
If its
underspinn, just under the ball obviously,
sidespinn, on the side that server touched
topspinn, close the racket angle
and all of the combinations of top 3 side-under, side-top and so on.
Of course you still need to judge the amount of spinn and read the contact point and react in time so its not that easy as I wrote it but sure helps a lot.
There is really good video of this method demonstrated by Oh Sang Eun posted by Der_Echte and translated form korean in ooak forum,
Oh Sang says its like acting as a mirror, thats a concept that was easy for me to remember.
For the 2nd method one obviously still need to figure out contact point, predict the flight path, react in time, and attack with GREATER spinn than that one that was produced by server. This obviously needs far greater skill and much more training....
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is a video of a top Chinese female coach on ITTF youtube chanel where she touches the subject,
I was reminded of it by UpSideDownCarl's comment on SmashFan's training.
She claims that coaches in China at very early age decide on one's receiving tactics based on their feeling for the ball, and are coached from the begining to either calm&place the ball like Ma Long or atack like Zhang Jike.
So maybe that the basis for SmashFan's training, maybe poor feeling for the ball or very good feeling for attacking the ball, or just coaches preference
This is a very interesting read. If you have a link to that video I would love to watch.
It is a very interesting way to judge it actually, if i think about myself I do like to touch a short serve short but with half long and long serves I always prefer to open the game up. So based on that information I should try and learn to open up short serves if possible too. I will give this a go in my next session.
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Yesterday I played with someone new and he agreed after some warm up to play games with 1 person serving the entire game. His serves were decent but I found after re reading all the tips and that TTedge app I was quickly able to adapt. I did find myself relying more on the flight of the ball, I tried to open absolutely everything that didn't bounce twice, also tried to open up on short serves too (not too much success though) only really working if serve was a little high.
All in all was very good and I learnt a lot and felt more comfortable and confident. I will focus more on bat-ball contact at some point as I can definitely feel I need to work on that.
But thanks for all the help
All in all was very good and I learnt a lot and felt more comfortable and confident. I will focus more on bat-ball contact at some point as I can definitely feel I need to work on that.
But thanks for all the help
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I think no matter how you receive serves you should attack every long serve, half long can be a bit tricky to judge (for me its an issue, and according to coaches for most) so should be more careful with those.
What I wrote is mostly concerning serves that bounce twice or more on the table.
EDIT:
I have found Der_Echte's post from ooak, forum http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=18440
ill paste the translation here (hope he wont mind it)
Oh Sang Uhn discusses service return. He describes the standard ready position and optimal distance of .8 to 1.0 meters from table. He says to position your self (left foot of a right handed player) partially past the BH corner and a little more if your foot work is good. he recommends penholders to stand entirely past BH corner as their foot work and speed is good and it is desireable as a single sided penholder to use FH for every stroke possible.
EDIT: Oh, he says to stand closer to the center of the table as a right handed player facing a lefty serving.
Oh Sang uhn makes TWO revelations about service recieve in this vid.
1) The woman asks Oh S.U. "I have always wondered. How do you figure out how to read the incoming ball's spin and make the right stroke?" Oh Sang uhn responds with the simplest of answers. He say to imagine a mirror right next to the impact. He says to have the racket angled exactly like it would be in the mirror (if making a push return) and push right through the ball. Simple, yet effective. Of course, this means being able to see the exact moment of impact and it assumes the opponent is not using a hidden serve, eh? This applies to bottomspin serves. he shows a technique to deal with topspins by closing the blade some at impact.
So, how does one have a better chance to know the angle at impact? OSU has yet another revelation about this matter.
2) To better read the blade angle at impact, DO NOT watch the ball toss, no matter how high. PAY ATTENTION to the opponent's RACKET throughout the ball toss and backswing.
Wow, 2 simple to understand techniques that pros of rediculous high levels use, yet are easily applied by us amature players.
Cool Stuff.
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I think it depends on the approach every coach or player has. I always train and prepare my mates to always be ready for a fast shopt, whether it is a serve/receive push,block or topspin near the endline . Those kind of shots are the worst case scenario for every player thats why after u make ur shot u must be ready for a fast ball, balls near the net and semi long are balls that u have comfortable time to react. This kind of training for me is fundamental cause you combine body balance,ready position,shot linkage and many more all in one. of course if ur ball lands extremely close to the net and low, it is rather unlikely u will get a fast quality shot to your endline so again its a win win scenario that you dont need to worry about. Now practicing short serves is a good way to practice feeling and neutralize the spin. There is no good and bad training regime, a good coach or good player must find the training routine that fits him in order to achieve maximum improvement according to what his goals are.
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