Blade/rubber combo recommendations for all round control and spin?

1) Which Boll blade was it? Just to see if it was an Off blade like TB ALC or one of those TB All+ or Off- blades.

What you had sounds like it was fine. However, the Appelgren Allplay would be really nice. If you wanted something a small step faster without being very fast it could be the Butterfly Primorac Off-. Allplay and Primorac have the same wood plies. Just that the Primorac is a little faster. I guess it is a little more expensive as well though.

Any reason you are thinking of changing the rubbers? If they work for you, you may as well change the blade first. And then after you are used to the new blade, you could decide if you want different rubbers. It is easier to get used to one new component at a time.

But the Vario Soft rubbers sound like they should be fine for you. Have you used AND liked a euro/japanese type rubber with a softer, bouncier sponge in the past? Vario Soft would be a giant change from Kokutaku 868.

Hello!

I'm not as expert on equipment as others on this forum, but I wonder if you should just stick with your previous set-up? The benefit of the Stiga Allround Classic / Kotukatu 868 rubbers combination for your game (at the moment) is that it will help you with the issue of dealing with incoming spin. As the blade and rubbers aren't that lively it will help you keep more balls on the table if your technique is a little lacking.

Or just change one element at a time. Stick with the Stiga Allround Classic, put Kotukatu 868 on one side and try out a different rubber on the other side? Then it won't seem such a shock. You'll have some continuity with a bat you are comfortable with, but a little extra spin / speed (if desired) with one of the rubbers.

Staffy said:

Hi thanks for reply. It was a Boll Allround.

I have used other peoples bats occasionally but dont know enough to know what they had! But I liked the deeper sound and cushioned feeling i get from other peoples setups.

In what way would the softer rubber be different in practice?

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If you got a Boll Allround with Mark V rubbers and the ball was flying all over the place on you, that was likely more the rubbers than the blade. Mark V rubbers have more bounce and catapult than the Kokutaku rubbers.

So the main reason you want a new setup is that you try other people's rackets and when you do, you like the deeper sound and cushioned feel? Well, the next time you try one of those, see if the person will let you play a whole match with it. See what happens. You might like that feeling when hitting. But in a match, it may or may not work for you.

If you play a whole match with that setup and really like it, just find out what blade and rubbers and get them.

All this being said, the setup you were thinking of:

Appelgren Allplay with Vario Soft rubbers would be an excellent setup for control. It would just be a giant change from what you have, not so much because of the blade. But because of how different the rubbers will be.

So, TTTom's suggestion of getting one Vario Soft rubber and putting it on one side of your current blade is a pretty good idea to start with. If you realize the soft Euro rubber does work for you, you can get a second one and put it on the other side. If you realize it is hard for you to control that kind of soft rubber, you can go back to Kokutaku without spending too much time or money.

Stiga ALL classic with 2xMark V 2.0mm can do it all. If you can't control that then it's your game you need to work on. That setup does it all, all shots all styles. Jack of all trades master of none. Also comes to less than £100.
I haven't heard of those rubbers but if they are hard and tacky then maybe instead of Mark V go with a skyline 3 NEO or the cheap cheap friendship 729fx or something.

You might like the lower sensitivity to incoming spin of many non-tacky rubbers, by comparison with the tacky rubbers you are used to. Maybe that's another reason to move away from the Kokutaku?

About the Boll all-round + Mark V experience: how long did you keep that setup? I'm asking because it sounds like it might have been an appropriate setup for you; in which case it might be a good idea for you to use that negative experience to frame your expectations when exploring new setups. (I mean, even for high level players switching gear tends to hurt their consistency at first. For less experienced players that tends to be even more true. Even if it takes months to build back the consistency they had with their previous setup, a given gear change can still be a good step in a player's development.)

Staffy said:

Ohwell- good question and fair point. I gave it a couple of months. The issue i remember was that if I attacked it would go flat into net. If I lifted it over the net it didn't drop in on other side. Does that mean I wasn't getting enough spin? I thought at the time it was the catapult effect meaning I had to tentatively stab at it rather than commit to full strokes.

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I actually have a feeling this has to do with how different bouncy Japanese rubbers are in comparison to tacky rubbers.

So even though NDragon’s statement that Mark V on an Allround Classic should be perfect, it may not be for Staffy since that is really very similar to a Boll Allround with Mark V.

It really takes very different technique to use Mark V as compared to Kokutaku 868. And it sounds like, over the course of 2 months, Staffy was not really able to adjust or to feel how to get the smooth non-tacky topsheet to grab the ball or how to get the ball to sink into the sponge so the topsheet wraps around the ball to use the sponge+topsheet for mechanical spin instead of the kind of topsheet spin you get from tacky rubber.

So I still think Staffy has to look at switching the rubber cautiously so it is easy for him to turn back if a switch to a Euro/Japanese catapult sponge does not work for him.


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Staffy said:

Tabletennistom and upsidedowncarl - yes that does sound like a good idea. I'd put it on the forehand side right?

Is there any value at this stage in going low spin on bh and high spin on fh? Use bh to receive serve or when defending and fh for attacks?

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I actually think you would flip it around to try it on both wings for a certain amount of the time.

1) Then, if you decide it works for both wings, you get a sheet of the other color so both wings have it.

2) If you decide it works for 1 wing but not both, you use it on the wing it works for.

3) If it doesn’t work for either wing, you go back to the old rubber.

[emoji2]


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Staffy said:

The issue i remember was that if I attacked it would go flat into net. If I lifted it over the net it didn't drop in on other side. Does that mean I wasn't getting enough spin? I thought at the time it was the catapult effect meaning I had to tentatively stab at it rather than commit to full strokes.

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This issue is usually common for stiff and hard blades paired with soft but fast rubbers.
The fact that the rubbers have more catapult does not mean that you can't envolve a full stroke.
To get the proper feel go to mid or longer distance, try to take the ball a little bit later and pay attention to every aspect in the different phases of the stroke - blade angle, contact point, swing, drive, swing, release point.
I mentioned swing twice because a such setup is mostly presumed to have a low throw and a tighter rebounce angle, so depending on the spin, force and window you may have to apply an extra wrist swing before releasing the ball. On longer distances it may not be needed so it would be better to start there and get the feel. When you get it you may go to shorter distances and adjust your mooves.

UpSideDownCarl said:

I actually have a feeling this has to do with how different bouncy Japanese rubbers are in comparison to tacky rubbers.

So even though NDragon’s statement that Mark V on an Allround Classic should be perfect, it may not be for Staffy since that is really very similar to a Boll Allround with Mark V.

It really takes very different technique to use Mark V as compared to Kokutaku 868. And it sounds like, over the course of 2 months, Staffy was not really able to adjust or to feel how to get the smooth non-tacky topsheet to grab the ball or how to get the ball to sink into the sponge so the topsheet wraps around the ball to use the sponge+topsheet for mechanical spin instead of the kind of topsheet spin you get from tacky rubber.

So I still think Staffy has to look at switching the rubber cautiously so it is easy for him to turn back if a switch to a Euro/Japanese catapult sponge does not work for him.


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One thing that might make a difference this time, though: knowing what to work on.

Staffy, you correctly points out that the ball trajectory issue with the mark V is most likely due to too little spin. Were you aware of that when you were using the Mark V? If not, does the challenge of transitioning to grippy rubbers seem more manageable to you now, being more clear about the goal of developing your spin technique with them?

Pater korbel with sriver el max is also a good combo even with polyballs though a bit slower than what they used to be with a different ball.

primorac 5 ply wood + mark v

yogi_bear said:

Pater korbel with sriver el max is also a good combo even with polyballs though a bit slower than what they used to be with a different ball.

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brimbaz said:

primorac 5 ply wood + mark v

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I am guessing you guys missed the part where a Timo Boll Allround Blade with Mark V was too fast and uncontrollable for him.


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UpSideDownCarl said:

I am guessing you guys missed the part where a Timo Boll Allround Blade with Mark V was too fast and uncontrollable for him.


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Well that was the setup I had when I started as a kid and it's pretty controlable. He needs to train and get coached to make correct movements and strikes, this seems to be the problem

brimbaz said:

Well that was the setup I had when I started as a kid and it's pretty controlable. He needs to train and get coached to make correct movements and strikes, this seems to be the problem

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Have you read that he has been using tacky Kokutaku 868 rubbers?

I still think you haven’t read enough of the thread to figure out what is going on or what he needs.

If going from an Allround blade with Kokutaku rubbers on it to an Allround blade with Mark V on it made the setup uncontrollable, then perhaps it may have to do with the kind of rubbers with which he has developed his technique. Hard, non bouncy tacky rubbers require completely different technique than Euro/Japanese catapult rubbers.

Even though everyone could use some coaching.

It just is hard to give an educated comment if you have not tried to figure out what may be going on for the specific player.

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Karis M would be right up your alley, but I don't know where you would get it in England.

I would be like Tom and say keep you same middle of the road blade (Stiga Allround) and one sheet of your familiar control rubber on BH, and try a little faster control rubber on FH. Karis M would be excellent, but again, I don't know where you would get a sheet there.

Many companies make 1-3 rubbers in the modern allround OFF sweet spot - a rubber with a middle of the road speed, decent to good spin, and high level of easy to control the ball...

Right off the top of my head I could say you ought to be able in Europe to find decent deals on Tibhar Aurus and Tibhar Genius... look to Genius first or get Aurus soft...

Genius runs around 35 GBP a sheet if it isn't on sale or special... Getting one sheet of that rubber won't kill you and can help you transition your touch and game to something more potent than the slow tacky rubber you are used to while still having some decent control and good spin.

The suggestion Tom has is kinda like my famous "Der_Echte Special, which is a cheep 12 GBP all wood ALL+ to OFF- blade with a new sheet of control Dawei XP2008 and a recycled FH rubber. I play with such a bat when I am in between setups and there is little perceptible drop-off in my game.... which is centered on SPIN and good serves.

I think I had a similar experience with you Staffy. I used to play penhold with chinese tacky rubbers but then decided to switch to shakehand grip since my footwork can't cope up anymore. So I first tried the DHS Wind series OFF blade with Hurricane 3, it turned out my shakehand grip lacked power as compared to my penhold grip making it hard for me to play with Hurricane 3. I decided to replace it with a non-tacky bouncy rubber (Yinhe earth 2), bad idea, the ball kept on flying off the table. I found out that my problem was my blade angle is too open when hitting the ball, this is due to me being used to play with tacky rubbers which requires a bit of an open angle during contact. I tried to correct it but my instinct keeps on making me change it back to what I used to. My final solution to this was to get a Def (Donier Defense, costs around 20euros) blade, as they're mostly low-throw, slow and easy to control, and pair it with a non-tacky rubber on the FH. Since the blade has a low-throw I don't have to adjust my blade angle anymore as the ball now lands on the table consistently. And despite being on a def blade the non-tacky rubber still plays bouncy and reactive so I didn't have to worry about my lack of power. I can also do all sorts of strokes efficiently with it, giving me great control of the game.

I suggest you try it too. Try Donier Defense blade and pair it with a low-throw non-tacky rubber, I recommend Dr. Neubauer Goliath Speed. I hope this helps you.