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    1. Top | #81
      EmRatThich is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by NextLevel View Post
      You are applying apples to oranges as zeio and brokenball have pointed out. But I think that is sufficient for most people who know enough about these things to understand why you likely don't understand these issues at all and are fudging them in some way.
      You don't understand well the principle of the rating, and didn't read any article of David. I just used the image to quickly explain the concept. You don't even know what is the mathematical core of ELO rating. So why should I spend 1h to explain to the hater

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    3. Top | #82
      Tony's Table Tennis is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by tropical View Post
      To know who has time and who not just look at the time they joined and # of posts they post. It amazes me!
      I just checked, I thought I had a lot of posts (I used to be very active in 2016 and earlier)
      some joined after me and near double my posts

      I think in 2017, my last 2 weeks of 2017 had more post than the 2017 combined
      I guess Jan 2018, this current 2 weeks will have more post than my rest of 2018 combined

      anyways, you guys have fun figuring out what is good and what is bad
      i'm getting ready for work and traveling again.
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    4. Top | #83
      WorkerBee is offline
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      EmRat, thank you so much for your work. Many of us love what you are doing. These are dangerous times. ITTF has internally exploded. Various people are flying around our poor little injured beast, many with purely selfish intentions. Most with hope for a quick healing. A sensible, universal rating system would be helpful. One that joins the high-schooler in Thailand with the monster in Dusseldorf and the cloud-walker in Shanghai. One that rejects the Gamblers' concerns, and helps the parents guide the child into local leagues.

      Commercial Sports is hardly a model. Prisons and Rehab Centers are filled with the rich and famous who crashed and burned. Should we use their ranking systems written by bookies? Proceed with caution.

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    6. Top | #84
      brokenball is offline
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      If I developed an enhanced RC rating system that took into account the score of every game of every game would anybody care? I know that no one would care. Not really. Not enough to do anything about it. So why bother?

    7. Top | #85
      NextLevel is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by EmRatThich View Post
      You don't understand well the principle of the rating, and didn't read any article of David. I just used the image to quickly explain the concept. You don't even know what is the mathematical core of ELO rating. So why should I spend 1h to explain to the hater
      My first degree is in Electrical Engineering and I have achieved a 2000 rating in both Chess and Table Tennis. I am extremely familiar with ELO systems and normal distributions, definitely not as technically versed with them as I was 20 years ago but well versed enough to know when someone who doesn't know what he is talking about is trying to pull a fast one over other people by using bluster. There is no point going on about it because I find that in issues like this where people lack the relevant technical expertise, they will just listen to whoever they like more.
      Cobra Kai TT Exponent - No mercy in this dojo, no matter your rating or the score. Finally playing with a fast blade and loving it.

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    9. Top | #86
      tropical is offline
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      I think ERT was only trying to show the probability of winning using HIS system (programing, data, etc) on the his ranking compared to the latest ITTF rating. Other folks points are valid, too as new ITTF ranking is not meant for prediction of winning probability. But if I were a gambler I'd never use the ITTF ranking to bet. Oh, no I take it back, I'd use ITTF ranking to bet with ERT ranking in mind. ML as a #7 will have little chance to win against Dima so you know what I mean.
      Last edited by tropical; 01-14-2018 at 07:26 PM.

    10. Top | #87
      Hamasaki_Fanz is online now
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      Quote Originally Posted by EmRatThich View Post
      You don't understand well the principle of the rating, and didn't read any article of David. I just used the image to quickly explain the concept. You don't even know what is the mathematical core of ELO rating. So why should I spend 1h to explain to the hater
      please ignore the hater, coach... Just make malong no 1 otherwise I will hate u too hehehehe

    11. Top | #88
      brokenball is offline
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      I have proved it to myself that the whole idea of weighting a 4-0 win as 100% and a 4-1 win at 80% is bogus.
      The weighting would change depending on the difference in the rating. Think about it.
      If player A is 200 rating points greater than player B you would expect player A to win 4-0. The greater the ratings difference the greater the chance the better player will or should win 4-0. Winning 4-3 is not much of a win. I haven't done the math yet but if the probability winning 4-0 and 4-1 is over 50% then winning 4-2 or 4-3 would indicate player A is not playing up to his rating level.

      I found my own question interesting so I did the math. A player with a USATT rating of 138 more than the opponent would be expected to win 4-0 or 4-1 over 60% of the time. Wins of 4-2 and 4-3 would indicate the stronger player performance was not good.

      What if the strong player actually lost points for a piss poor 4-3 win over a much weaker opponent because statistically he should have won 4-0 or 4-1?

      However if the difference ratings is small you would expect the chances of winning 4-0 to be much lower than winning 4-3.
      Now think about it. It makes intuitive sense.

      Yes, I did the math and can compute the probability of winning a game given the probability of win a match. I can even compute the probability of winning each ball.

      If the USATT ratings difference is 90 points then the probability of winning each ball is 55% or about 11/20.

      I need to think a bit how to fit the games won in a match into the big scheme of things.

      Now here is my challenge to ERT. How did I do it?
      What I did isn't hard any college student of probability should be able to work this out. If you can't get this far there is no hope.

      I don't think NextLevel is being hateful. I think he is just telling the truth.

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    13. Top | #89
      RidTheKid is offline
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      Been there done that

      Quote Originally Posted by TTFrenzy View Post
      care ful what u wish for now !

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    15. Top | #90
      NextLevel is offline
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      The kind of match we believe will be the end of the world in table tennis:

      http://www.tennis.com/pro-game/2018/...illiams/71262/

    16. Top | #91
      Suga D is offline
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      Hahaha. This is just too good.

      Calling everyone a hater who doesn't hate on the new ranking system is just too funny. Now who's the hater, hataz??


      Y'all must be a bunch of jokers.

      Y'all pretending as if the new ranking was installed out of the blue overnight, when in fact it was announced more than a year ago and everybody* had the chance to adapt and raise their tour participation just like Timo did.

      Also as a few others have pointed out, this whole change isn't final yet. Corrections and adjustments can and surely will be made.

      I bet if Ma Long, Ding Ning or Fan were at the top no one would complain.

      Hopefully in a few months FZD will be on top so people (that have the nerve to call others haters) remain silent.

      BTW: making fun and picking on people that invest their time to explain stuff to others and post here isn't really what brings a lot of value to the forum. Thanks for that and also thanks for showing your true face.

      Luckily there are still pros like Par Gerell and Paul Drinkhall and a few others that still post here every now and then.

      So go and hate some more or better just hate yourself

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    18. Top | #92
      UpSideDownCarl is offline
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      Another Rating System Much More Accurate Than the ITTF World Ranking

      What I find to be of most interest in this discussion is that the guys with the engineering degrees are trying to explain the numbers and how the old system was changed because of the players request and because inactivity allowed certain players to stay in high rankings without exposure.

      And the people who seem to be calling names like “haters” (man that sounds like something my daughter would have said when she was 8) simply seem to want to keep the old system where ZJK could play 5 matches in one year, have 3 first round exits, 2 of which were forfeits, a 2nd round exit and one quarterfinal exit and still be in the top 10.

      We all know that ML is a better player than Dima. But many seem to fail to realize that most of the top CNT players did not play that much in the past year.

      I am not sure the new system is how it should be. I think TTTony has pointed out some things that could improve the current system. But the old system was clearly broken. And when players play the requisite number of matches, the system’s results will be more accurate.


      Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy
      Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 01-15-2018 at 03:50 PM.
      Spin Everything.

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    20. Top | #93
      TTFrenzy is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by Suga D View Post
      Hahaha. This is just too good.

      Calling everyone a hater who doesn't hate on the new ranking system is just too funny. Now who's the hater, hataz??


      Y'all must be a bunch of jokers.

      Y'all pretending as if the new ranking was installed out of the blue overnight, when in fact it was announced more than a year ago and everybody* had the chance to adapt and raise their tour participation just like Timo did.

      Also as a few others have pointed out, this whole change isn't final yet. Corrections and adjustments can and surely will be made.

      I bet if Ma Long, Ding Ning or Fan were at the top no one would complain.

      Hopefully in a few months FZD will be on top so people (that have the nerve to call others haters) remain silent.

      BTW: making fun and picking on people that invest their time to explain stuff to others and post here isn't really what brings a lot of value to the forum. Thanks for that and also thanks for showing your true face.

      Luckily there are still pros like Par Gerell and Paul Drinkhall and a few others that still post here every now and then.

      So go and hate some more or better just hate yourself

      No worries, rainenever, ERT will soon stop talking about it once ML or FZD earn their "deserved" place in the ranking list. What's more funny is that people will still talk about it like the CNT put up a fight against an "unfair" ITTF.

      A new soap opera about TT would be a good idea for some users here, when one has the mentality of a household wife (no offense household wives, we love you its just an example) then one can cimply not see beyond their "house"
      I suck real bad so I train to suck less

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    22. Top | #94
      RidTheKid is offline
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      I think we should arrange a TTD tournament where the winner gets all the losers blades, "scalps".

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    24. Top | #95
      zeio is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by Tony's Table Tennis View Post
      ITTF is very good in making 1 adjustment per year
      out of all the adjustment the past 10 or years, the result never got closed to it goals
      waiting for them to fix (or denial) the ranking problems
      So far ITTF has never admitted any mistakes the past 10-20 years

      Btw, are you a fruit farmer?

      Also, i'm sure these changes don't effect you as a human being
      I have a good few engagement with coaches that had to plan 2018 schedule as these new changes come in a crucial year (not sure why they didn't do it in 2017 as it is less crucial) as 2018 has YOG and 2019 is your OG qualifications
      I have seen lots of possible scenario and maybe for you, you can sit back to pan it out.
      I'm with groups of people that can't afford to wait for it to pan it out.
      I'm sure you would love to re-read my posts in 6 months time or 12 months time and see my suggestions in the other posts.
      There are many flaws, and it is creating problems with management, especially for junior players

      If ITTF knows they need to make changes, why didn't they pilot this for 1 to 2 years first?
      Did I give myself away? Well. Here, meet my fructus industriales.



      As a farmer, I'm not the least bit affected. My crops are in good hands. Nor am I affected as a human being. It's not like my life or humanity is in any danger as suggested by ERT's warning that "using this ranking system is dangerous."


      But as a fan, this change affects me in a positive way. I will consider attending an event if I get to see some of the top players in person. Also, as an amateur, I am relieved of the burden of a coach or player in the circuit, which allows me to view the issue from a broader perspective. It's not like they came up with this whole thing overnight. They've been working on it since August 2014. On the Athlete's Commission request, they gave it a test run for a year. I'm also sure the ITTF would love to have you read up on what they're trying to accomplish with this change.


      If I were a coach, the least I could do is voice my concerns to the Athlete's Commission via my national association. That's what they are there for. There is a fair chance that Samsonov may relay my concerns to the ITTF. If I feel adventurous, I will probably contact Zoltan Bencsik. He is the Results & Ranking Manager in charge of this change.


      Nagging to a farmer on an internet forum won't get you far. After all, a farmer's job is to reap what he sows, or so I was told.
      Last edited by zeio; 01-16-2018 at 05:06 AM.

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    26. Top | #96
      RidTheKid is offline
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      What are those crops?

      Quote Originally Posted by zeio View Post
      Did I give myself away? Well. Here, meet my fructus industriales.



      As a farmer, I'm not the least bit affected. My crops are in good hands. Nor am I affected as a human being. It's not like my life or humanity is in any danger as suggested by ERT's warning that "using this ranking system is dangerous."


      But as a fan, this change affects me in a positive way. I will consider attending an event if I get to see some of the top players in person. Also, as an amateur, I am relieved of the burden of a coach or player in the circuit, which allows me to view the issue from a broader perspective. It's not like they came up with this whole thing overnight. They've been working on it since August 2014. On the Athlete's Commission request, they gave it a test run for a year. I'm also sure the ITTF would love to have you read up on what they're trying to accomplish with this change.


      If I were a coach, the least I could do is voice my concerns to the Athlete's Commission via my national association. That's what they are there for. There is a fair chance that Samsonov may relay my concerns to the ITTF. If I feel adventurous, I will probably contact Zoltan Bencsik. He is the Results & Ranking Manager in charge of this change.


      Nagging to a farmer on an internet forum won't get you far. After all, a farmer's job is to reap what he sows, or so I was told.

    27. Top | #97
      zeio is offline
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      Peach trees.

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