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    1. Top | #21
      ajtatosmano2 is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by NextLevel View Post
      You want to create yours? You could always use Ratings Central for the calculation and just store your match results.
      I can't really use ratings central. I want to create my own ranking list between the club players. Maybe even creating a list in our league. It would be interesting plus the coaches would have an easier time to choose players for our different teams (we play in two league at the same time) and against different level opponents.

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    3. Top | #22
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      Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl View Post
      Yawn.

      This kind of thing feeds the egos of the people dissatisfied that the current results don't reflect people's expectations. When the top pros are healthy and playing consistently, we will see how the new ITTF ranking system works. But this is just an excuse to feed the anger and insecurity of people who don't understand why the players who seem to be ranked lower than they should be got those rankings.
      I'm sorry, but I keep reading these kind of responses defending the new rating system. Perhaps only a few extreme fans are angry and insecure about the new rankings. From my playing circle, I think most are concerned about how this rating system financially affects players and how having an injury months before the WTTC or Olympics can impair the seedings of a top player and the course of a tournament (Imagine if Ma Long and Fan Zhendong were to meet in the second round of a WTTC).

      We already have a sense of how the ranking system works. We've seen how past tournaments have affected the rankings. We also know that Top players are now basically not allowed to fall sick or get injured. As an older player it's not going to be possible to just focus on the big tournaments. They're going to have to put their bodies through the grinder. We saw how exhausted Timo Boll was in his match against Fan Zhendong. Is that what you want to see?

      Everyone is also quick to compare to the new rating system to the Tennis rating system and conclude that it is fair. If my voice is not sufficient, Timo Boll had this to say on the subject:

      "Im Tennis spielt halt kein Topspieler in einem Verein, bzw. auf einer anderen Tour. Würden alle Tischtennis Spieler nur auf der World Tour starten und nichts anderes( wie im Tennis), wäre das System gut."

      Translated to: In Tennis no top player plays for a club, or for another tour (like T2). If all Table Tennis players were only to play ITTF World Tour matches, the new system would be good.

      Top Players have to play for their clubs to make a living. The Pro Tour prize money is not sufficient for players who are say not favorites to win the title, but still are still in the top 100 to lose money on the World Tour. I don't follow Tennis very closely but I'm sure that the prize-money and endorsements from a career in Tennis has a much higher scope. If you are constantly playing in the Bundesliga, Champions League, T2 and on the World Tour, then it's hard to regularly attend the World Tour. This is obviously going to be very hard on the body.

      Even before the new system, I think the CNT has been excellent about regularly sending their players to the World Tour. Obviously the firing of LGL and Ma Long's injuries caused them to be inactive for a while but Team China, Japan, South Korea and Germany are probably the only associations who can keep sending their players with such regularity. For the others it just isn't financially feasible. Even a player of Samsonov's calibre is mostly without a coach on the World Tour.


      I think ITTF may have had the right idea but the change is too drastic.

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    5. Top | #23
      UpSideDownCarl is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by anchorschmidt View Post
      I'm sorry, but I keep reading these kind of responses defending the new rating system.
      I think there is a lot in your post that is valuable. I am not sure we are actually talking about the same thing. I am not sure we can defend or denigrate the new system till it has actually been in place and used for a while.

      I think there were flaws in the old system. And there are flaws in the new system. Hopefully, over time the system will be adjusted so that it works better. But we have no real idea of how well this system will work because it has just been implemented and all the players who people expect at the top and want to see at the top did not have the opportunity to play enough due to circumstances beyond their control. When all the top players are healthy and play consistently we will be able to see better how this system works.

      However, what I was actually talking about is that, by making his own ranking system, EmRatThich is playing on the egos, anger and the fears of the fans who do not like the initial ranking results. And the reason he is doing that is for the popularity of his YouTube channel, which is where he makes his money.

      Is that more clear. The system is not perfect. Hopefully, after ITTF sees how it works over the next 6 months to a year they can tweak it so it is better. But someone making their own ranking system, as though it would compete with ITTF's, well, lets look at the real motivation behind it rather than simply being led like cattle.
      Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 01-12-2018 at 05:33 PM.
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    7. Top | #24
      zeio is offline
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      It must be stressed that this new ranking system is the result of the ITTF listening to the request of players.

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    9. Top | #25
      NextLevel is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by zeio View Post
      It must be stressed that this new ranking system is the result of the ITTF listening to the request of players.
      Lots of players must have been happy with Timo Boll and Zhang Jike keeping high rankings through lengthy periods of inactivity. While they would do the best they could to play many events and come out with only a decent rating at best to show for it.

      That said, you cannot sell a tour if the highest ranked players on it are not the players who are performing on it. And let's get this straight - no matter what you think about the ITTF tour, the tour as a product should reward its performers, not the strength of the players. And in the end, they decided that the only way to create serious implications was to make sure that the tour performance meant something.

      I do think that there is some tweaking in the initial ranking that is driven by many things in current circumstances and that the ITTF is trying to create habits before it normalizes the system to something closer to tennis or badminton.
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    11. Top | #26
      Der_Echte is offline
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      A system that rewards players not actually performing and does not heavily reward winning is a system that sucks serious rox and can lick my nasty foot fungus out of my court shoes.

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    13. Top | #27
      EmRatThich is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl View Post
      I think there is a lot in your post that is valuable. I am not sure we are actually talking about the same thing. I am not sure we can defend or denigrate the new system till it has actually been in place and used for a while.

      I think there were flaws in the old system. And there are flaws in the new system. Hopefully, over time the system will be adjusted so that it works better. But we have no real idea of how well this system will work because it has just been implemented and all the players who people expect at the top and want to see at the top did not have the opportunity to play enough due to circumstances beyond their control. When all the top players are healthy and play consistently we will be able to see better how this system works.

      However, what I was actually talking about is that, by making his own ranking system, EmRatThich is playing on the egos, anger and the fears of the fans who do not like the initial ranking results. And the reason he is doing that is for the popularity of his YouTube channel, which is where he makes his money.

      Is that more clear. The system is not perfect. Hopefully, after ITTF sees how it works over the next 6 months to a year they can tweak it so it is better. But someone making their own ranking system, as though it would compete with ITTF's, well, lets look at the real motivation behind it rather than simply being let like cattle.
      Hi Carl,

      I don't play on the egos, anger, and the fears of the fans!

      When I first saw the ITTF ranking of Jan 2018, I've said "It's so ridiculous!". And started to find myself the reason!
      ZoomTT also finds that the new system has the flaws.
      Click image for larger version. 

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      And I found that the real World Ranking is the "Rating Centrals", which is very scientific. However, the author didn't update the result due to some difficulty. If there is already the Update on Rating Centrals, I won't make this ranking.

      So I decided to make my own try! And I'm happy with it!

      Second, you said that, the motivation for my YouTube channel Wrong!

      It's almost nearly 2-3 weeks that I didn't make any YouTube videos. It's totally wrong, what you say.

      Recently, I'm too busy. I don't have enough time for my YouTube channel.

      And I just want to say to you, in this world, things run by "Passion and Money". Like this forum, it's made by Dan's passion. And of course, it should generate income because nothing is free for you.

      I make my own ranking because I love table tennis. This is the first thing! I spent a lot of time to read, to learn and to code.
      My real job offers me much more income per hours than the YouTube channel. But I love this sport, so I decided to focus on this.
      Last edited by EmRatThich; 01-12-2018 at 04:19 PM.

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    15. Top | #28
      NextLevel is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by EmRatThich View Post
      Hi Carl,

      I don't play on the egos, anger, and the fears of the fans!

      When I first saw the ITTF ranking of Jan 2018, I've said "It's so ridiculous!". And started to find myself the reason!
      ZoomTT also finds that the new system has the flaws.
      Click image for larger version. 

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Views:	106 
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ID:	15157


      And I found that the real World Ranking is the "Rating Centrals", which is very scientific. However, the author didn't update the result due to some difficulty. If there is already the Update on Rating Centrals, I won't make this ranking.

      So I decided to make my own try! And I'm happy with it!

      Second, you said that, the motivation for my YouTube channel Wrong!

      It's almost nearly 2-3 weeks that I didn't make any YouTube videos. It's totally wrong, what you say.

      Recently, I'm too busy. I don't have enough time for my YouTube channel.

      And I just want to say to you, in this world, things run by "Passion and Money". Like this forum, it's made by Dan's passion. And of course, it should generate income because nothing is free for you.

      I make my own ranking because I love table tennis. This is the first thing! I spent a lot of time to read, to learn and to code.
      My real job offers me much more income per hours than the YouTube channel. But I love this sport, so I decided to focus on this.

      Try again - flawed by what measure? You have to decide what the criteria is for assessing the system before you call it flawed.

      Did Fan Zhendong have a better 2017 on the ITTF tour than Dima? Maybe yes. But maybe not. No one won more tournaments than Dima did last year.

      Is Fan Zhendong a stronger player than Dima. Maybe yes. But maybe not - they split matches last year.

      The criteria for determining the flaw is the key here. The ITTF has said that the goals of the rankings have been expanded to move beyond merely reward players for being good - it wanted to encourage more participation. There is no way to see whether that will work or not and whether the the system will predict strength better until players have been allowed to respond to it.

      It is like saying that there are no taxes in the world in 2018 and saying that the system is flawed because people paid taxes in 2017 - you have to give 2018 a chance! This is Carl's point.

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    17. Top | #29
      Suga D is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by EmRatThich View Post

      I don't play on the egos, anger, and the fears of the fans!
      Really?

      Dude, you really are an interesting character.

      I might even believe that this wasn't your main intention, but how would you call it, when someone judges over something that didn't even have the chance to prove how good or bad it really is?

      I mean c'mon, the new ranking system today is now actively running for ELEVEN DAYS!!! Let me say that again:
      ELEVEN DAYS!! Hahaha
      Not one tournament since it was put active and you already come up with your own ranking system?

      Now as an objective bystander how would you call such a sucker move?

      Right, it would sound less polite than Carl has written.
      Prejudice could be one word for this behaviour.

      And creating and setting up clickbaits doesn't make you more sympathic.

      As i wrote in my previous post, if you're so full of phantastic ideas and solutions why not try get a job at ITTF?
      They might need more smart guys on their staff.

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    19. Top | #30
      tropical is offline
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      Oh god ... too many emotional posts.

      Just move on and give the new system a year or 2 ... please.

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    21. Top | #31
      WorkerBee is offline
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      People flipping out at this ranking proposal are getting nasty. I'm waiting to see how it plays out. After a few tournaments, we'll have a better idea of the different ranking systems. I expect EmRat's system will be the most accurate. I'm sorry for the Dima fans that it immediately deposes the king, but it's no surprise that the current ITTF president approved a system that crowns the German champ as number 1.

    22. Top | #32
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      Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl View Post
      Yawn.

      This kind of thing feeds the egos of the people dissatisfied that the current results don't reflect people's expectations. When the top pros are healthy and playing consistently, we will see how the new ITTF ranking system works. But this is just an excuse to feed the anger and insecurity of people who don't understand why the players who seem to be ranked lower than they should be got those rankings.
      How is creating a new ranking based on science and thorough research that someone believes to be more accurate a bad thing? Just because it's there doesn't mean you have to use it.

      Even if it is an excuse to feed egos I don't think we should be discouraging fans from trying to discover alternative systems to use if it involves them creating more table tennis content for others to enjoy

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    24. Top | #33
      NextLevel is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by WorkerBee View Post
      People flipping out at this ranking proposal are getting nasty. I'm waiting to see how it plays out. After a few tournaments, we'll have a better idea of the different ranking systems. I expect EmRat's system will be the most accurate. I'm sorry for the Dima fans that it immediately deposes the king, but it's no surprise that the current ITTF president approved a system that crowns the German champ as number 1.
      Accurate at doing what? ELO systems are used in many countries, especiallyin chess where they were originally developed. Ratings Central had a more accurate ELO system than the current USATT system. But can you believe that for many reasons, Some political, but some also based in the fact that players didn't want lower ratings, people wanted and easy to predict system and preferred the variations caused by the USATT adjustment system, that people preferred the USATT system to remain?

      You have to state what you are trying to do before you can measure the results of a system. Accuracy or playee strength measurement isnt everything, especially if the measurement was done using different incentives from the playing period under which the measurement will take place.
      Last edited by NextLevel; 01-12-2018 at 06:15 PM.

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    26. Top | #34
      NextLevel is offline
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      Over at mytt, people are pointing out that the ITTF system is not rating players or assigning them strength. In fact the old ranking system had a rating component and a bonus points component to get to its ranking.

      The new system is ranking tour performance. There is no rating component to it.

      I guess this won't make a difference to some but it has to be said.

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    28. Top | #35
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      Dear EmRat, is it possible for fun to add the top 30 players from the Chinese Super League into your January ratings chart at the beginning of this thread?

    29. Top | #36
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      Hi Coach, wonderful to have you post here!

      I agree completely that a world ranking system should reflect who is the best in the world, and not who was hassled to live their entire lives in insignificant european tournaments wrecking face and possibly getting injured in the process.
      Your system looks to reflect this very well and I respect and admire all the coding work you put into it.

      Ignore the haters. A system like this you code over a weekend is an accomplishment they could not achieve in their whole lives if they bothered themselves out of their armchairs!

      Good work and thank you for all the videos

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    31. Top | #37
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      So, the ITTF ranking is only of a specified number of recent World Tour Events, while yours considers other big tournaments, what tournaments don't you consider and what is your time period ?

    32. Top | #38
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      I don't have a bone in this fight.
      I think the RC system is near perfect and we don't really need yet another rating system.
      The RC system has a complicated algorithm for computing new ratings. If EmRatThich is not a skilled program and understand how to implement the integration of integrals I doubt he will get far.

      However, this thread has made two good points.
      1. It would be good to count 4-0 or 3-0 wins as being more significant than 4-3 or 3-2 wins.
      2. Ratings get old. Some players do sit on a rating and not play in fear of losing. There is a solution for this. Make ratings decay like radio active decay. If a player lost 10% of his ratings per year without an update then the player would be encouraged to play. The problem is that decaying ratings would bring all the ratings down. There would need to be an offseting mechanism to get the rating from deflating or inflating.
      David Marcus is smart. I think he could figure out a solution. One perceived problem with RC ratings is that they are lower than USATT ratings. Decaying ratings wouldn't be to popular.
      My 3rd point.
      3. People have said this or that system is more accurate. What? RC has a standard deviation for each rating. The RC system makes no claims to be accurate but it is realistic. Other ratings systems have little if any statistical justification for their methods. The USATT rating system is very bad.

    33. Top | #39
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      There are already many good thoughts on new and old WR systems and other ranking systems like RC in recent threads. However, before we discuss and argue which system is better (of course no such perfect system), we should ask: Does WR matter?


      Some people think WR does not matter. It's true that when a player enters a tournament with the highest WR, he/she still has to beat all the opponents to win the champion. The champion is not necessarily the highest ranked. But people may ignore the fact that it is WR that makes a player eligible to play most tournaments at the beginning, including major tournaments. In other threads, I've mentioned that low ranked players cannot enter a World Tour event because each tour has an upper limit (i.e., Hungarian Open 290, Qatar Open 170) and according to ITTF rules, when the limit is reached, all remaining players will be put on waiting list and will be accepted upon cancellations according to WR order. For example, WR#100 cannot play Qatar Open if all WR#1-99 plan to play. Well, people may say: who care about WR#100, we care about top players and want to see them play. Top players have high enough WR to be accepted in these tour events, that's why we can see them play. WR not only matters for World Tour events, but also for Olympic Games, WTTC and World Cup! I guess people may know the story that Guo Yan was not able to play 2012 London OG team event when she was removed from singles list because of some stupid rules of qualification by WR. Ma Long was not able to play 2012 London OG singles event because his WR was not high enough. Japanese players with the highest WR get spots in WTTC and WTTTC; no trials required. World Cup invites players other than World and Continental Cup champions based on their WR and Continental Cup results. WR is also used for seeding for all events except ITTF Grand Finals. I hope you agree now that WR does matter and a higher WR does good to a player, in terms of being able to enter a tournament and being seeded.


      Since WR is important for players' career, whatever it measures (participation, results, against whom one wins/loses), it had better be consistent and stable. Or, change the rules and don't use WR for qualification/seeding.

    34. The Following 2 Users Like rainneverever's Post:

      Andy44 (01-13-2018),matzreenzi (01-13-2018)

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      jesus christ the net never seizes to amaze me. I suggest we make a new sport with boosting/speed glue allowed, super spin pips allowed,same color rubbers allowed and we can call it "PING IAMNOTINDENIAL PONG"

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