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    1. Top | #1
      tutas_piotr is offline
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      OFF- blades. I need your help

      Hello,

      I'm returning player. I always played with preassembled bats. I feel like it is the time to change that. Right now I'm using Stiga Flexure rated as OFF+ setup. I'm not sure how this stat corresponds to blades and rubbers bought separately.

      I don't feel like the current bat is too fast. However I feel like in order to topspin the ball I need to finish the movement with bat almost (or even exactly) parallel to the floor. I don't know what is the reason for this but it looks exaggerated compared to other players and videos.

      Smashes are hit and miss. I quite often miss few inches of the table. However I'm not sure if the blade is too fast. I guess I just need more playtime as I play around 1 month once or twice a week using this bat.

      I'm a forhand dominant player. I like to play in all areas of the table (close, mid, far). Im more of an offensive type but I sometimes turn into defender as I don't feel uncomfortable there. My backhand offense is almost non-existant

      This is short introduction to show where I am right now.

      I have 3 blades that I seriously consider:
      Tibhar stratus powerwood
      Donic persson powerplay
      Tibhar IV-s
      and quite a few that i still consider: stiga offensive classic, stiga classic evolution, donic persson powerallround etc.

      What I have read suggested that I would benefit with quite fast blade with a little flex. By quite fast I mean fast for all wood blade. A little flex to have a little easier time with topspin.

      I can get Tibhar IV-s and Donic persson powerplay quite cheap. Powerwood is a little more expensive.

      questions:
      1. Tibhar IV-s seems to be old model but there aren't many opinions out there. Is it on the same level as powerwood, primorac Off- JP? Or it's just worse model than those guys? It's hard to interpret quality of the blade and the price is not always the best indicator...
      2. Are my overall thoughts about the blade reasonable?

      I might have more questions once I get some answers
      sorry for my english!


      exaggeratedexaggerated
      Last edited by tutas_piotr; 01-14-2018 at 10:18 AM.

    2. Top | #2
      yogi_bear is offline
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      The best off- blades i have tried:
      1. Adidas avenger v
      2. Offensive classic cr
      3. Primorac off-
      4. Nexy peter pan
      5 xiom aria lite

    3. Top | #3
      Ilia Minkin is offline
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      Powerwood is barely OFF- blade, IMO it should be rated OFF, especially a heavy one.

    4. Top | #4
      Ioiettino is offline
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      IVs has been around for ever (the Primorac too!) but that's rather a good thing in my opinion when considering blades, especially all wood - not infallible by any means, of course.

      Based on what you describe though maybe better keep it on the slower side (Donic Power AR is a good shout, I've never tried a Powerplay though) until you really feel comfortable on both wings?
      Last edited by Ioiettino; 01-14-2018 at 03:57 PM.

    5. Top | #5
      Der_Echte is offline
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      Don't worry too much about the exact blade right now. Concern yourself about staying in the middle of the road of ALL+ to OFF- for now.

      Same thing for the rubbers. Go middle of the road OFF allround with a bias towards spin potential and control.

      There are SO MANY possible combinations they will out-number the hairs on your head. You could pull out all the hair on your head, re-grow it, pull it out again, and repeat 10 times before you get to 1/2 of the possible combinations.

      It isn't worth it dude, so many on this forum have been there and done that.

      You could try out other players' bats every time someone will allow it, that is easy and free of money. The other way is the path of Equipment Junkie and you probably do not have the funds for it.

      Don't do it dude, it is tempting.

      If spending not so much money means spending only a reasonable amount (decent rubbers will cost you some money) then stick with a blade in the category that will be around 35 to 50 Euros (gotta be 100 of those around) and get something middle of road like Tibhar Genius which will be around 30 Euros a sheet +/- a few depending on vendor or promotions.

      One possible bat from your specs COULD be (just get something similar in performance)...

      Tibhar Stratus Power Wood 35-40 Euros
      Tibhar Aurus x2 30-35 Euros

      or Xiom Vega series 30 Euros each

      Total right around 100-110 Euros

      You could try to skimp and spend a little less, like say go for a 10 Euro less expensive blade and cheaper rubbers... but why?

      Another idea is to get a blade and rubbers used from another EJ for less than 1/2 the price of new and replace the rubbers later or replace FH rubber right away.

      My famous "Der_Echte Special" is kinda like that backwards... a new Yinhe 896 blade ($16 USD) and new XP 2008 rubber ($8 USD) and recycle a FH rubber from another bat... total cost of $24 USD to be combat ready. That is a middle of the road setup that Carl and Next Level will tell you I can play acceptably well using it...

      You have a lot of possible ways to go, but do not agonize over it unless you like that kind of thing. Just get something in the middle of the road and go from there later.
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    7. Top | #6
      Tony's Table Tennis is offline
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      +1 on Der_Echte on his blade and rubber choices/speed rating

      also note, the Stiga Flexure is a premade bat
      I read it is 5 star

      imo, even a 10 star is inferior to the Der_Echte Special
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    9. Top | #7
      tutas_piotr is offline
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      Thank you for your insights.

      Haven't OFF- rating for old bats became todays all/all+ after so many years (new balls)?. I think Off- rated decade old model might be somwhere in between what you guys suggested. Other than that I would like this blade to be as fast as my off+ bat. I guess allaround might be a bit slower... That's another reason why I would like to stick to Off- choice. I know - it's still just my guess.

      I'm not going to be EJ. I'm planning to buy good enough blade that it's going to be used for years (unless it ends up completely not suiting me...) and just changing rubbers once they degrade. But rubbers are another story. I don't want to think about them before I choose the blade.

      Does any of you guys have had a chance to play with Tibhar Iv-s? If so please answer to my first question.
      Last edited by tutas_piotr; 01-14-2018 at 06:33 PM.

    10. Top | #8
      JST is offline
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      I have several OFF- blades: Bfly Primo OFF-, Yasaka Sweden Extra and Tibhar Stratus Powerwood.

      Primo OFF- being almost on par with YSE in terms of speed but I prefer YSE because of better control. Not sure if it is because of rubbers (using Rozena MAX and H3n MAX) or because my Primorac is from mid 90s and it wasn't the best batch (or all these speedglue layers made it dull? but it simply isn't transferring all the feel to the handle as I'm now used to from YSE. I had borrowed Primo OFF- (japan version) with Rozena 1.7 and 1.9 an it felt little better. Anyway I stay with YSE and I can definitely recommended to everyone who plays allround/offensive style and is bellow 2000 on PL ranking

      I've tested recently Tibhar Stratus Powerwood with the same rubbers I use on YSE and it's noticeably faster. Not much but it is. I don't have the same control as with YSE but that might be just because I haven't adopted to it yet. Will be testing more after season in April/May/June. My conclusion is that all these three blades are great but because produces in large quantities you might have slight differences (at least in weight). I definitely recommend YSE if you ask me which one to choose, namely because of great speed/control balance and also the best manufacturing quality from these three (shocking not shocking. I like Yasaka modern rubbers with all these more then hard/tacky Chinese things like H3n and Butterfly tenzors like Rozena (but that's because I play allround European style how it was popular in 90s before ball changed and Chinese technique evolved so much).

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    12. Top | #9
      Ioiettino is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by tutas_piotr View Post
      Thank you for your insights.

      Haven't OFF- rating for old bats became todays all/all+ after so many years (new balls)?. I think Off- rated decade old model might be somwhere in between what you guys suggested. Other than that I would like this blade to be as fast as my off+ bat. I guess allaround might be a bit slower... That's another reason why I would like to stick to Off- choice. I know - it's still just my guess.

      I'm not going to be EJ. I'm planning to buy good enough blade that it's going to be used for years (unless it ends up completely not suiting me...) and just changing rubbers once they degrade. But rubbers are another story. I don't want to think about them before I choose the blade.

      Does any of you guys have had a chance to play with Tibhar Iv-s? If so please answer to my first question.

      • Pretty sure you can forget about the "off+" rating of your premade Stiga, at least when opposed to any custom-made bat assembled with genuinely fast components. Different worlds.
      • Valid point about how things have changed, but if in doubt and since you plan to keep your blade for a long time, better be slightly on the safe side and ramp things up rubberwise. The one time I tried I tried a IV-s I was a junior and the ball might still have been 38mm (I've come back to the game after a while, too) so this is near pointless, but back then and as a developing player getting a first taste of speed glue, I was just glad to hand it back. Again I know this won't really be of any help; just having fun remembering. Hopefully more feedback no this from others.
      • All sound suggestions as far as I can tell (people with a lot more experience in testing, too), I'm just surprised with the inclusion of Aurus as a "middle-of-the-road" rubber. Tried it a few weeks ago for the first time (on Tibhar Chila Off, which is no crazy stiff carbon what-have-you) and that was already pretty hard and fast as far as rubbers go. Nice, by all means, good solid feeling and all, but still. Perhaps the new Aurus Select could be more like it, if cost isn't an issue.

    13. Top | #10
      PiZa is offline
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      Donic Persson Powerplay is for sure faster and much harder than Primorac. Control probably Primorac have better but i prefer Powerplay overal. My DPP with ST handle weight 95 g. so as you see it's quite heavy blade.

    14. Top | #11
      Der_Echte is offline
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      Loop :)
       
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      Quote Originally Posted by tutas_piotr View Post
      Thank you for your insights.

      Haven't OFF- rating for old bats became todays all/all+ after so many years (new balls)?. I think Off- rated decade old model might be somwhere in between what you guys suggested. Other than that I would like this blade to be as fast as my off+ bat. I guess allaround might be a bit slower... That's another reason why I would like to stick to Off- choice. I know - it's still just my guess.

      I'm not going to be EJ. I'm planning to buy good enough blade that it's going to be used for years (unless it ends up completely not suiting me...) and just changing rubbers once they degrade. But rubbers are another story. I don't want to think about them before I choose the blade.

      Does any of you guys have had a chance to play with Tibhar Iv-s? If so please answer to my first question.
      A make can say this or that about their products and try to assign a speed/spin/control number to their products...

      This is a real silly thing to do as there are way to many factors affecting the final bat and so many different impacts possible... no way to truthfully assign numbers to any of that.

      I am the Janitor of the Nexy USA shop and as low man on the totem pole, I got tasked to do the descriptions of the blades. Guess what I did NOT include ??!! Yup, I did not assign a numerical speed/spin/control rating to anything.

      That is why I like TTD Dan's dynamic tests... they show what the setup is and how it performs in several common situations.

      Even with the same blade, you get wild variances... wood is not an easy thing to make consistent like that... then you have the glue job which can affect stuff.

      I agree a relative fast top speed blade could be relatively slower to a large degree on a softer or less forceful impact... in fact, Nexy purposely designs blades to do this to have different gears of performance across the possible kind of impacts. Also, player X may have a weaker impact than player Y on the same kind and degree of power on a stroke.

      Some players, given enough time, experience and attention to detail, can get enough experience and firsthand knowledge to know what does what in which situation... and judge for themselves what will work best for them.

      ONE problem with even experienced players is they lean their preferences to what FEELS best or seems to perform best for the macho man power topspins... this is a TRAP, even for the experienced.

      One ought to look at what keeps ball on table best, what is easiest to control to do that, what keeps opponents from attacking you, what gives you ability to pressure opponent, and ability to land the winning shot. What overall keeps ball on table and troubles opponent is the ultimate trouble making combination and should be craved.

      I am in direct opposition to many pundit coaches (even though my basic overall view (middle of road reasonable control first mindset is similar) and also the power kill krew is on the other side of the opinion.

      I say a player starting out or getting back should go modern middle of road OFF allround control until they discover what will ultimately make it easier to do the majority of the important shots that affect the outcome of a point and match...

      I say priority number one is to land the shot (a massive FH powerloop is nothing unless it lands), land it so you do not get attacked, land it so it is pressure to opponent, and land it so it doesn't come back.

      That should be the order of priority for nearly every player (except defensive players, but it is similar, the pressure is done by consistency and variation), but many of us stray away from that enchanted by visions of extreme spin and pace.

      Der_Echte likes putting heavy topspin on the ball as much as the next fellow, but I select equipment that will give me the best chance to play like that while still landing ball a lot, pressuring opponent and winning points. (In addition to the normal attacking shots) It is amazing how many more points you can win with a soft counter or a fish or softer shot to the middle...

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    16. Top | #12
      UpSideDownCarl is offline
      says SPIN: Too Much Is Never
      Enough!
       
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      Not much more to add. Der has covered the most important material. You just may need a translator for that. But it seems the goon squad is after him yet again. So his translator is running a few minutes behind him.

      If you are only playing a month or a few months, All+ to Off- really is what you want.

      Yasaka Sweden Extra is a great idea.

      Yinhe Galaxy 896 blade would be excellent too and quite inexpensive.

      Donic Appelgren Allplay would be excellent as well.

      So would

      1) Butterfly Primorac Off-
      2) Stiga Allround Evolution
      3) Yinhe Galaxy W6
      4) Stiga Offensive Classic
      and a whole host of others.

      As far as rubbers, if you are on a budget, you could get inexpensive Chinese (imitation Euro) rubbers. Like

      1) Dawei 2008XP
      2) Dawei Inspirit Quatro
      3) Air Illumina Alpha or Delta

      Or, if you are not on all that much of a budget:

      Nexy Karis M or Xiom Vega Intro.
      Spin Everything.

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    18. Top | #13
      UpSideDownCarl is offline
      says SPIN: Too Much Is Never
      Enough!
       
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      Some of where we have gotten the information for what you should use is the description of your level of play and how long you have been playing. Middle of the road is a good idea. You will improve faster with the equipment that has been recommended. The blades you were thinking about would be a little faster than would be recommended for your improvement.

    19. Top | #14
      Ioiettino is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte View Post
      A make can say this or that about their products and try to assign a speed/spin/control number to their products...

      This is a real silly thing to do as there are way to many factors affecting the final bat and so many different impacts possible... no way to truthfully assign numbers to any of that.

      I am the Janitor of the Nexy USA shop and as low man on the totem pole, I got tasked to do the descriptions of the blades. Guess what I did NOT include ??!! Yup, I did not assign a numerical speed/spin/control rating to anything.

      That is why I like TTD Dan's dynamic tests... they show what the setup is and how it performs in several common situations.

      Even with the same blade, you get wild variances... wood is not an easy thing to make consistent like that... then you have the glue job which can affect stuff.

      I agree a relative fast top speed blade could be relatively slower to a large degree on a softer or less forceful impact... in fact, Nexy purposely designs blades to do this to have different gears of performance across the possible kind of impacts. Also, player X may have a weaker impact than player Y on the same kind and degree of power on a stroke.

      Some players, given enough time, experience and attention to detail, can get enough experience and firsthand knowledge to know what does what in which situation... and judge for themselves what will work best for them.

      ONE problem with even experienced players is they lean their preferences to what FEELS best or seems to perform best for the macho man power topspins... this is a TRAP, even for the experienced.

      One ought to look at what keeps ball on table best, what is easiest to control to do that, what keeps opponents from attacking you, what gives you ability to pressure opponent, and ability to land the winning shot. What overall keeps ball on table and troubles opponent is the ultimate trouble making combination and should be craved.

      I am in direct opposition to many pundit coaches (even though my basic overall view (middle of road reasonable control first mindset is similar) and also the power kill krew is on the other side of the opinion.

      I say a player starting out or getting back should go modern middle of road OFF allround control until they discover what will ultimately make it easier to do the majority of the important shots that affect the outcome of a point and match...

      I say priority number one is to land the shot (a massive FH powerloop is nothing unless it lands), land it so you do not get attacked, land it so it is pressure to opponent, and land it so it doesn't come back.

      That should be the order of priority for nearly every player (except defensive players, but it is similar, the pressure is done by consistency and variation), but many of us stray away from that enchanted by visions of extreme spin and pace.

      Der_Echte likes putting heavy topspin on the ball as much as the next fellow, but I select equipment that will give me the best chance to play like that while still landing ball a lot, pressuring opponent and winning points. (In addition to the normal attacking shots) It is amazing how many more points you can win with a soft counter or a fish or softer shot to the middle...
      Nice! Also I had never heard the term "fishing" in relation to TT (English not a native language) and had to look it up, as someone who loves countering more than anything I quite like it ahah - "come here, don't be afraid". ^^

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    21. Top | #15
      langel is offline
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      https://tabletennis.inters.pl/produc...XIOM-Solo.html

      This one would meet all you need.

    22. Top | #16
      Ioiettino is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl View Post
      Not much more to add. Der has covered the most important material. You just may need a translator for that. But it seems the goon squad is after him yet again. So his translator is running a few minutes behind him.

      If you are only playing a month or a few months, All+ to Off- really is what you want.

      Yasaka Sweden Extra is a great idea.

      Yinhe Galaxy 896 blade would be excellent too and quite inexpensive.

      Donic Appelgren Allplay would be excellent as well.

      So would

      1) Butterfly Primorac Off-
      2) Stiga Allround Evolution
      3) Yinhe Galaxy W6
      4) Stiga Offensive Classic
      and a whole host of others.

      As far as rubbers, if you are on a budget, you could get inexpensive Chinese (imitation Euro) rubbers. Like

      1) Dawei 2008XP
      2) Dawei Inspirit Quatro
      3) Air Illumina Alpha or Delta

      Or, if you are not on all that much of a budget:

      Nexy Karis M or Xiom Vega Intro.
      Oh heyah, I used to come here quite a bit more about a year ago and I remember you were using a Virtuoso (+?) which you
      swore by. I've always been interested in these, just not buying any equipment in between moving countries and stuff. Any reason you've changed, and what differences do you find with your current setup?

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