SENSITIVITY - or why is its absence problematic when posting on the web!

Title tells!

I felt the need for this, since people started thinking they were funny when they were not.
Maybe one of the mods can move all the misplaced posts from the WTC thread over here.
Meanwhile i will quote them, so after the originals are moved i can delete the quotes.

One thing first: this is NOT about what many politicians like to call 'political correctness'!
So if you want to promote political agendas, this is NOT the right thread to post at.
THIS IS about EMPATHY, SENSITIVITY and most of them all RESPECT!

It's NOT so much about calling out people but rather avoiding hurt feelings and subtile racism!

Please discuss politely! Thank you!

Michal_Z said:

Lol USA Women: Zhang Lilly, Wu Yue, Wang Amy.. Not being the last player Amy and Zhang being Lilly, this would be second China playing the world cup, lol

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Suga D said:

I guess this is supposed to be funny, but in fact it's rather stupid, small minded and (the worst of them all) quite racist.

You do realize that Lily and Amy are both BORN US CITIZENS who've been playing their entire Life for USATT. *smmfh*

Funnily this kinda racist-bullsh*t only happens to Asian-americans and Afroamericans, never to Euro-americans. Ain't that a b*tch

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jawien said:

You are absolutely right Suga - Michal's comment was unfortunate, specially because Lilly and Amy were born in the US.

Here'e a lesson to always use deep mind google ai super machine ... just to have a deeper and broader view.

But to defend Michal a little I guess he was more referring to the situation in Europe. Here some countries (specially women teams) have players born in Asia, and with their skills fully developed there ... so the assumption is that they tend to import players rather than develop their own, if you can see my point. So nothing against Asian players, but rather objection against the national associations that they don't develop strong enough players themselves ...

So I guess he copy - pasted this situation for his unfortunate remark about the US Team, but I wouldn't be looking for anything racist here.

Btw, where's Ariel now? She was doing such a great publicity for tt with Bill ...

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Michal_Z said:

Okay - so its supposed to be just funny, I have no idea about where they were born, but if there were team women Germany it would be another China.
It is far from racist, but I dont take your opinion from you.
It was just funny to me, that no real american name there.
So if you are mad at me - sorry about that - but that is your point of view, I am not being offensive to anyone, I am just a guy who loves to laugh
And that is all I do, no matter how mad you get, because, frankly, I dont care

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jawien said:

Yeah Michal I tried to point out that you were more referring to how tt is dominated by Asian players, rather than anything else.

Btw, no problem with Asia domination - you guys deserve it! I just wish tt was as much popular in other parts of the world as it is in your countries ... : )

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Suga D said:

Even your example with Europe isn´t better. As long as they have an european passport, they are european with the same rights and obligations and responsibilities like every other european citizen! Simple as that.

Just because you´re unable to detect the hidden racism, doesn´t mean it´s not there.
In fact, it´s totally racist! Let me give you an example:

If someone who learned playing TT in China as a kid and then moves to another country as an adult (let´s say Spain, to make this realistic) and has been living in Spain for several years and would receive a Spanish passport then he STILL woudn´t be seen as Spanish and also shouldn´t be allowed to play for Spain by following that logic! No matter the passport and whatnot. Pls keep in mind that he´s been paying taxes like everyone else and also helps to develop spanish youngsters.

Now try to explain how this is not racist! Good luck with that!

strangely this only happens in sports. Now exchange the TT with let´s say Computer programming. Someone from India would want to live and work in France but has learned programming in India. Would you also say he shouldn´t be able to become french and shouldn´t try to do what he can do best for the better of France? I don´t think so.



That´s all you gotta say?? Your missing sensitivity is only topped by your ignorance!
You like to laugh a lot? Well, me too.... [EMOJI23]

Wtf are you talking ´bout, smartboy? You´re so blind, you don´t even see your own racism!
What would be an american name to you then? Miller, Shultz, Goldstein, Lundberg or Rodriguez?
If you still didn´t get it: THOSE ARE EUROPEAN NAMES!!!! If you wanted AMERICAN names they would sound like: Tecumseh or Tȟatȟáŋka Íyotake or Tashunka Witko or Goyaałé

Some people just don´t want to know how much racist they are!

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v100ev said:

Wow, some serious topics here
For me the situation is as follows: you should compete for the country in which you were taught to play. Within reason of course. I mean if you leave China after becoming a professional there and become a citizen of any other country I think it should be normal not to compete for this country.. Cause your sport achievements would be a result of your training in your first country(China in the example). I think in sports it should be as simple as that If you represent a country then you should have gotten more that a passport from it (I mean skills) to represent it too.
But that's my opinion and it has nothing to do with the US girls cause they are totally legit in this aspect
Whatever , let's watch how team Romania will fight the Chinese Taipei team)

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rainneverever said:

Well, Lily Zhang does not look like an American name (what should an American name look like?), does Kanak Jha? It is 21st century and how come people still judge people by their ethnic groups...

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Andy44 said:

Trolls like to call people racists because it pisses everyone off, divides them, and starts fights. Even worse, it's off-topic in this thread.

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Suga D said:

Thank you. Finally someone using his brain in here.



And ignorants might be able to ignore everything. It wasn't me who started making racist remarks.

Maybe some persons who aren't victimized are unable to understand but i don't need anyone to tell me when to feel offended. Thank you!

Back to OP: luv the way Khanak played. Stefan and him must have been doing some excellent work in the last ten years.

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jawien said:

Ok, I really would like to be out of this discussion. In Poland we have great national players born in China and i.e. I love seeing Li Qian live, playing league matches with our local team from time to time. Wang Zheng Yi is probably most like-able guy in our men's national team. I've met him few times - very friendly guy.

I was trying to show some nuances regarding specially women national teams in Europe. Does the situation show dominance of Asian players - yes (I have no problem with it - already explained), should national associations be focusing on developing strong players themselves - yes. This is all I want to say.

Suga if you want to detect racism everywhere ... go for it. Just don't be too zealous really.

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Michal_Z said:

Thank you so much Suga D!
I wish you could see my huge smile that is on my face right now

You know - I find something funny and bang - now I am racist without knowing it..
Well thank you for your enlightment!

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yoass said:

Xebeche. Tȟatȟáŋka Íyotake. Tȟašúŋke Witkó. Phizí.

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yoass said:

I think the remarks leading to this stank to high heaven and that hiding behind the pretense of humour is a shameful ruse, but to pick the necessary nit here: I don't think they were racist. I think they were nationalist, another (and comparable) form of bigotry.

The nation of course being a different fiction from the notion of race. Both are baseless misconceptions, but hey, they are different misconceptions.

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jawien said:

Ok, I got into this, so here's the explanation.

1. Who said or proposed the logic that he/she "shouldn´t be allowed to play"? Doesn't the example from my country I wrote about show otherwise? Once you are a Citizen you are a Citizen. Still with me?

2. If such situation does not happen on the overall immigration basis, but is rather an effect of a weaker training system in one's country, would it be seen as a little unfortunate - from this perspective - yes I would say. Not because the new player is from other country!!! Simply because it shows our domestic sport institutions, sort of failed to produce good players, or ... the sport itself in my country is diminishing among young generations.

3. Should we just accept the situation, appreciate the quality of new "foreign" players and just try to work harder - yes, of course - what else?

Suga, can you really not see the complexity of the situation I'm trying to explain?

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ttmonster said:

... completely agree with Suga D on this, there is nothing complicated here , there is something called the law of the land , and if there is a law that lets you get citizenship of that country even when you are not born there , you should be able to represent that country. I know there are some laws created by certain sports bodies to put some stipulations to avoid situations where countries can just get people to immigrate and immediately having them represent that country , which still makes sense .. .but here we are talking about players like Lily and Kanak who are not even 1st generation immigrants , all of them are born and brought up in USA ...

and that comment about "American Name" is really unfortunate , its only apt that Suga took offense , there is no reason one should not , nationalism or not it just reveals the true though process of the person who used it ...

There is a reason why countries allowed immigration, and unlike most other countries , in recent history USA is a country completely built out of immigrants , at least the recent batches of immigrants can claim that they came over because of their skills instead of being adept at killing off the native population ...

most people tend to conveniently forget that throughout human history populations have moved from on place to another in search of more favorable conditions , the concept of nationalism etc is more recent history and is a convenient creation of politicians to rile up people who don't want to change their narrow ways of thinking ...

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jawien said:

Ok ok ... TTMonster, few things since you are quoting me.



I wasn't talking about Zhang Lily or Jha Kanak - great match today btw - or any other specific player for that matter. Pls, read Suga's comment I was referring to.



I didn't comment a single word about american names. Far from it.



Of course, this is why America has a unique perspective on the immigration issues.



Yes probably it is a time of a big migration of players from Asia to Europe. Didn't I just write that we should accept this "natural" process and try to appreciate the quality of those new players coming to us? Shouldn't we at the same time somehow still try to keep interest in the sport of young people in Europe?

That's all there is to it.

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jawien said:

One more thing (the last one probably). Say, if you have a player, you worked with for his whole life and he was competing for his country in every age category, working hard till seniors and there is this other player - also good - who came just few years ago. Wouldn't you naturally relate to the first one little more?

We all know we have to be open as a society and this is what we are trying to do. I just hope the process will be balanced somehow.

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ttmonster said:

... I did not target you .. I was just generally responding to the conversation that was going on and why I thought Suga D was right on this one ..

I don't know about what fake superior judgment you are talking about , you cannot have any sort of protectionism , the moment you do that you will always end up with second grade performers and then becoming a prisoner of unintended consequences which again becomes a tool in the hands of the politicians .. its seen across societies and countries .. the only thing you can really do is to make sure you make better and better resources available to the players or native born competitors so that the ones with real talent can be prepared to compete and rightfully take up the positions against whosoever they have to compete with ...

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Suga D said:

One last thing, because we got wayyy too offtopic here.

First of all thanks to monster and those that understood why i took offense.

Jawien, your point was understood in your first comment and it's alright if you see it that way, but Michal should know better. If it was the first time this happened i probably would have reacted differently, but unfortunately it's not.

See, making stupid jokes and comments about ethnicities of people might be tolerated in the little microcosmos he's in, but you can't come to an international forum make insulting jokes and expect people to remain silent and not take offense. To think like that is rather short sighted and naive IMO.

But again: THIS is NOT the place to discuss these political views and stuff like this.
Maybe we can create a new thread for this, and one of the mods can move all the derailing comments over there to keep this thread clean.
Me and probably some more people would like to enjoy this tournament without getting to know the insensitiveness and rudeness of some people.

Thanks for understanding!

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NextLevel said:

Let's just say you need to know something about who you are writing to when making arguments like this. And you don't know enough about people on the internet to discuss these issues in any detail. Your positions are not unreasonable, just don't waste time trying to defend them on this forum or thread. It takes a certsain level of maturity to stick to facts and leave the politics for a more suitable forum.

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jawien said:

Sure you are right NextLevel. I usually try to defend people but this time before I knew it I got into the argument with Suga and it's never good for the discussion. Sorry about that.

Actually I dare to think Michal might be better off if I wasn't trying to defend him so much. It's just that I think I live quite close to his "microcosmos" and ... well the rest of the story.

Anyway, let's just keep this thread clean for proper comments.

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Baal said:

I would say it is ALWAYS the place to call out stuff like that when it comes up! Especially in the world we live in now.

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jawien said:

What is being taken into account for ranking points are your last 8 best tournaments within a year period, so there is no way Dima's participation could affect his location.

My take on Dima's absence is that probably German team come to the conclusion, that without Timo it might be a loosing battle anyway, so there is no point to risk more serious injury ... Specially before Halmstad ...


PS.



You are indirectly referencing me, but let me follow Suga's suggetion and NextLevel advice and not comment here. Thanks.

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I guess i will have to edit this a little to make it better readable

Xylit said:

I did not find the initial post by Michal_Z racist at all. I did not find it funny neither but I don't see a problem when someone points out that the last names of a team all sound similar to another teams' last names? He was stating a fact without any valuation. While I thought your reaction to that was way too much in the other topic making ANOTHER topic about that issue is rather ridiculous.

We live in tough times today and I see where you are coming from but as much as I am disliking racists etc. I don't like people being oversensitive and moralizers out of nothing neither, calling everyone racist for no real reason. It is both annoying af.

Where should this discussion lead to? This is a crappy topic for a table tennis forum.

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Well, you can trust me, that i also could do without making such a thread, but i wanted to give Michal and others the chance to understand why his mindlessly made posts might be quite insulting to other people. I'm quite aware that Michal hasn't meant to make a racist statement, but just ' because he didn't mean it, doesn't mean it is less offensive and insulting.

Neither is it my intention to make a fuss out of nothing but rather raise the awareness level how mindless posted words can be very mistaken by some.

Funnily the one who points out BS is always seen worse than the one causing this BS. Why is that?

Have you ever heard of, that words could hurt more than physical violence?

Especially on an international tabletennis forum where you only have words or maybe short vids to get to know people and rather rarely get to know people personally.
So if all you have is the word of a person better make sure it isn't insulting. You simply just gotta be a little more careful and watch out what you post. Simple as that.

Lastly it's always easy to claim other people are overly sensitive when one isn't the one who's feeling victimized.

I would find it interesting how guys like Allen Wang, or Fan Bo Meng see this here.

In fact, if you look at literature about this topic and follow social media you will easily see that your reaction is the standard reaction by people talking about or even defending racism. You will find a lot of: "don't be so sensitive" or "get over it, it wasn't meant so, or it's already long time ago". Those are pretty much the typical answers people receive when pointing out racism.

Now let me ask you: if i accidentally kick you in your balls, and my reaction was like: "don't be so sensitive" or "Oops, i didn't mean it", would those be the kinda words that you would like to hear? Will these kinda words ease your pain?

I'm quite sure that would be the opposite you would like to hear in that situation.

Well, anyhow thanks a lot for your inappreciative comment.

A little hint: next time you don't like a thread, just scroll on.
I'm a grown man and certainly don't need your permission when to feel offended and when not.

Thanks.

jawien said:

I also agree, this is a crappy topic for this forum and I do not want to continue this thread! Here's why.

Now - it all started with the US Team. I used to live in the US for a while and trust me, I am really not a person who would discriminate anybody, especially based on the race - even to write it sounds terrible. Yet, right after I came to US, with absolutely no wrong intentions on my side, my US friends find the way I tried to express myself probably "improper" - for their sensitivity. I was really surprised, just like Michal probably is now.

I thought about it for a while and there is definitely an aspect of different sensitivities here. It must be based of course on the historicity, sociology etc. I'm not and expert in neither and I'm afraid I don't have proper words and knowledge to deal with this delicate matter. So sorry Suga and other colleagues on this forum, but I don't feel like I have enough "credentials" to play a part of your leading adversary here.

I have too much respect for our, China born players, playing for our national team, to risk that I might say something that would offend them in any way.

Specially if you try to put my arguments in the context of social insensitivity.

I'd rather try to talk about objective facts that Asia dominates the sport - sorry I must say it - and how it relates to the other parts of the table tennis world. I hope everybody can see (specially our friends from Asia on this forum), that the issues I tried to raise are objective, hopefully open-minded and they simply express my genuine concerns.

Sorry guys, but I really want to stop here and just move on to more positive topics.

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As much as i appeciate how you explain yourself, this here is rather funny, since it was your last post on this topic in the WTC thread that has blown my fuse and made me create this thread.

You seem to have quite an inability to accept other people's opinions when they are contrary to yours, or why did you feel the necessity to keep the offtopic posts alive and attacking, answering and argueing to each and every one that has been sending me positive posts about my reaction. That's a pretty childish and immature way to behave IMHO.

The latest was Baal's post where you felt the need to answer to, even though you weren't quoted and his post was obviously directed towards me.

Do you know the meaning of the word: egocentric? Dude, you are not the sun and the world isn't spinning only around you, so you don't have to answer for me. I'm big enough to answer for myself!!

Anyhow, the stuff you write is very different than what Michal wrote in the past. There was more than one post of his where he stated how much he hates to see foreigners like Thommy Keinath or chinese descendants playing for the slovakian National team and stuff like that, which is his rightful opinion (no matter what i think of it), if that's the way he sees things. But it starts getting a problem when he tries to force his opinion on others.

So there has been already some "history" on this topic in the past.

Are you sure you still like to play his advocate?

His attitude might be rather Nationalist than racist (btw.: those two terms are two hunchback cousins dancing cheek to cheek), but his post rather revealed the latter:
See to make such a joke, implies that one thinks that only european sounding names could be american, hence Lily and Amy can't be real americans. Even his "excuse" he thought it was like the situation with the German Womens Team was lame.
That kind of thinking reveals that there is first and second class citizenship. And that is where the racism lies within.

And believe me, i really have better stuff to do than argueing about racist remarks and how they are meant respective how they should be understood.
See I'm the master of my feelings and don't need to ask for permission when to feel offenfed.
I hope i have made myself clear.

Lightzy said:

Getting offended on behalf of someone who probably doesn't give a crap is seriously petty. It's something you could have let slip by with nobody minding but decided to take offence anyway.

None of the above is offensive in the least. It's a comment about the humor in needing chinese to beat the chinese in TT or something.

Which is about as funny as it is offensive..

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You might be right or not, but just see it as a given chance to avoid hurting other people's feelings in the future.

Thank you.

v100ev said:

Ok, how did my quote end up here too? Is it racist(problematic/sensitive) too? I'm really interested in knowing the topic's starter opinion about that, cause I really didn't think it can be interpreted that way. If it is offensive I'll apologize to the offended party.

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Hey, congratulations. This is actually the only appropriate reaction which i actually was expecting or rather hoping for from Michal.

As i wrote before: when i accidentally kick you in your balls you don't wanna hear stuff like: "don't be so sensitive" or such, you would want to hear stuff that you wrote, like: "Hey, sorry, i didn't mean to hurt feelings, i like to apologize" and stuff like that...

YOUR post was NOT insulting at all, so no need for you to apologize.

Thanks a million for that.

I actually just quoted you 'cause your post contributed to the offtopic derailing discussion. If you like to i will remove your quote.

bobpuls said:

I relly want to give thumb down for this thread... Shame .

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And luckily every one could see where you give thumbs up too!
Still thanks for your honesty and your contribution.

rainneverever said:

I agree that people from different countries and cultures do not have the same levels of sensitivity on the issues discussed here. We need to realize that we are different people and may not share the same opinions; but we can be more careful and appreciate others' concerns later.
But one thing that I want to add, Tomokazu Harimoto's real last name is ZHANG, the common Chinese last name same as Lily Zhang's. Tomo's father Zhang Yu "gave up" his Chinese last name and changed it to Harimoto (meaning originated from Zhang) after he got Japan nationality. Tomo was born in Japan and he is Japanese; Lily was born in USA and she is American. I guess people in this forum may not make fun of Tomo's last name as make fun of Lily's last name, simply because they don't know the stories. Last names show where their ancestors come from, but not where they come from. And last name does not really matter for their performance and progress in TT, right?

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Thanks Rain, that is actually exactly the whole reason for this thread:

UNDERSTANDING one another.