Flexible all+ - off blades?

You could try :

Tibhar Stratus powerwood
DHS PG7

All wood, flexible and enough speedy.
I've also heard great things about Nittaku Violin / Acustic, but they are quite expensive..

Butterfly Primorac
Yasaka Extra 3D
Tibhar Stratus Power Wood
Stiga Offensive Classic
Nittaku Violin
Nittaku Acoustic
OSP Virtuoso

The difference (generally) is that flexible blades are faster, less linear and much harder to control than stiff ones and soft blades are slower than hard ones and have more dwell time, thus more spinny. Generally. But it's so variable that.. for example, the liu shiwen blade is seemingly EXACTLY the innerforce zlf blade, except it's a lot faster and it's said that this is because the gluing process. So go figure. Also it's really difficult to really categorize blades like this because there are very variable compositions. DHS301 for example has a hard outer ply (one of the hardest woods used in TT blades) but softer inner layer and carbon underneath that, so it's a hard blade on weaker shots and softer feeling on harder shots etc. It's so variable..

A 'dead' feeling blade doesn't necessarily mean anything bad too. I have a blade called Palio King Yue that feels kind of dead (it's an 11 ply blade with 4 layers of soft carbon so ultimately you don't feel that much of the impact), but because it's all soft layers it is a very soft blade that is relatively non-flexible (Because of the many layers) and is the best blade for topspin I ever used. Driving with it is extremely comfortable exactly because it feels 'dead', too, but it is a tiny bit too slow for me ultimately.
A stiff/soft blade that has a kind of magic of its own.

So..
Maybe you should try it by the way, it's like $20 with free shipping on aliexpress. Possibly you'll like that.

Lightzy said:

The difference (generally) is that flexible blades are faster, less linear and much harder to control than stiff ones and soft blades are slower than hard ones and have more dwell time, thus more spinny. Generally. But it's so variable that.. for example, the liu shiwen blade is seemingly EXACTLY the innerforce zlf blade, except it's a lot faster and it's said that this is because the gluing process. So go figure. Also it's really difficult to really categorize blades like this because there are very variable compositions. DHS301 for example has a hard outer ply (one of the hardest woods used in TT blades) but softer inner layer and carbon underneath that, so it's a hard blade on weaker shots and softer feeling on harder shots etc. It's so variable..

A 'dead' feeling blade doesn't necessarily mean anything bad too. I have a blade called Palio King Yue that feels kind of dead (it's an 11 ply blade with 4 layers of soft carbon so ultimately you don't feel that much of the impact), but because it's all soft layers it is a very soft blade that is relatively non-flexible (Because of the many layers) and is the best blade for topspin I ever used. Driving with it is extremely comfortable exactly because it feels 'dead', too, but it is a tiny bit too slow for me ultimately.
A stiff/soft blade that has a kind of magic of its own.

So..
Maybe you should try it by the way, it's like $20 with free shipping on aliexpress. Possibly you'll like that.

Click to expand...

So OP's asking about an all-wood blade and you go on about carbon blades? I don't follow your logic whatsoever.

Also, how are flexible blades harder to control than stiff ones? For a blade to be flexible, it needs to be made of "softer" woods that can bend thus allowing more dwell time...

OP seems to know what he's looking for since he's tried various types of blades and provided accurate feedback on them. He wants a flexible blade, thus all-wood in the ALL+/OFF- region, and you're going to recommend an 11-ply "dead" feeling blade?

It is interesting: OP also did say he wanted info On blades that were faster than an:

Allround Classic

because that was too slow.

And slower than a:

Petr Korbel or Clipper

because they were too fast.

And PG7 (very close to Clipper), Stratus Power Wood (very close to Korbel) and the Allround Classic were all mentioned. [emoji2]

But thomas.pong is still making a good point.

Lightzy’s post is interesting from a sociological perspective. But I am not so sure about the value of a lot of the content. [emoji2]


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UpSideDownCarl said:

Lightzy’s post is interesting from a sociological perspective. But I am not so sure about the value of a lot of the content. [emoji2]

Click to expand...

UpSideDownCarl said:

It is interesting: OP also did say he wanted info On blades that were faster than an:

Allround Classic

because that was too slow.

And slower than a:

Petr Korbel or Clipper

Because they were too fast.

And PG7, Stratus Power Wood (very close to Korbel) and the Allround Classic were also mentioned.

Click to expand...

Ah yes, Stratus Power Wood is probably too fast still... Stiga Offensive Classic might just be right in the middle of Allround Classic and Korbel, not too slow or too fast for OP... He's very precise in what he's looking for given what he's already tried and his feedback. What do you think?

Most of the blades on your list were on target though. So I will add:

Yasaka Sweden Extra
Nexy Peter Pan
Stiga Energy Wood
Stiga Allround Evolution

There really are a lot more. Every company has a few blades in this class.



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Thomas, if you actually read his post, past the part where youre solicited for recommendations, you'd see hes asking all kinds of questions. So i answered those questions truly. He also mentioned his coach talking about dead blades so i wrote on that a bit.

As for your question (which he also asked):
Flexible and soft are not the same thing. This is a common misunderstanding. Flexible does not imply the ability of the blade to bend, but rather the ability of the blade to flex quickly back into its original shape after impact deformation. Like a drum skin thats taut. If its slackened it is more soft but less quick to flex.
A flexible blade is (generally) harder to control because its behavior is less predictable. If you hit a ball with a metal ruler you will experience less control than if you hit it with a metal block. The differences are minute, with the rubbers and the variance of flexibility in blades, but they are there and make an effect.

Also you asked about the material propery of being soft and flexible but this is not always the right way to look at it because flexibility is often dictated by the shaping and design of a given substance. A metal ruler is very flexible but a metal cube is not, given it is the same composition of metal. It is a bit more complicated than this of course because every material has its own 'inherent composition' or crystal structure which are the same regardless of shaping, though the shaping process can change this composition (for example with the application of heat)... But this is a very general gist.

So I brought up the 11 ply blade as a functional example of material property interacting with design to create a specific effect. As a general rule, the more plies you have the less flexible the blade, (especially given plies are often glued in different alignments which, for wood or carbon 'weave' is very significant it is the whole reason that there are plies to begin with) but it is not necessarily less soft.


Is that clear i hope?

I also hope carl could once point out to something specific i say which is incorrect instead of trying to impugn in general terms which are never specified. It is very unbecoming. I think it is also unbecoming of you, thomas, to encourage this kind of behavior in a forum for adults.
It is interesting from a sociological standpoint though? Ha

It is true, soft and flexible are not the same thing. Sometimes when flexibility is discussed, some of what is referred to is vibrations from the blade.

The idea that a more flexible blade is harder to control is missing some information.

If you hit flat, if your impact is direct instead of tangential, then a more flexible blade will not be as fast or as easy to control in comparison to a stiffer blade.

However, if your contact is tangential and you are using a more flexible blade, for that kind of contact, the flex and resultant vibration can help increase dwell time and, at the same time, speed.

So, often, flexible 5 ply wooden blades are often referred to as looping blades.

Hard wood can be flexible. Soft wood is not always flexible. And construction definitely plays a role in how a blade flexes.

Often the blades that are most flexible are thin.


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Yup that is exactly right.

What Carl says about how flexible blades react is more detailed than what I wrote.I said that the flexible blades will be harder to control in general but he also said why and when. It is because unless you use the right angle AND motion in EVERY stroke, you will get inconsistent results, while with a less flexible blade this will not be a big issue and drives will be a lot easier and consistent. however if you DO use them correctly, they also have a magic of their own.
I use mostly a Liu Shiwen ZLF blade which is built to have more of these 'vibrations' both in the materials chosen (ZLF) and composition (large head) so I can tell you that looking specifically for a flexible blade is, well, something you should put some thought into. I can't consistently drive back a topspin, for example, and some players can be really punishing if they can drive a topspin with power consistently rather than topspin it back. So there's always tradeoffs.

But ultimately, in keeping with what Carl wrote about the angle and motion of contact - even a minute change in the angle and motion of the racket is much, much more significant than all these material properties put together.
If what you want is an all wood 5 ply flexible blade that will make your coach happy, go for it and Carl's recommendations are ideal.

I will give a little story.

A friend of mine had these two blades. One was a blade that was all Hinoki: Butterfly Jonyer H. The other was a Cornilleau Hinotec All+ which has a Hinoki top ply and Limba and Ayous under it.

He asked me to hit with both and see which I liked better. This was a long time ago. It was before I could really loop. I hit with flat, direct contact back then.

The Hinotec felt great to me. And the Jonyer felt terrible.

Then my friend asked another friend, a woman who was semi-pro (2400+ USATT). She said she much preferred the Jonyer. That it was faster, got more spin and more control.

Her technique allowed her to feel things about that blade that, at the time, I had no access to.

When my loop was solid and I tried that same blade several years later, I was amazed at how good it felt. How fast it was. How much spin I could get with it.

At a lower level I didn’t have access to feeling how the flex added to the dynamics of the blade. But when I had a decent level loop the blade felt totally different.


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BTW: Liu Shiwen blade is an excellent blade where you can really loop with it. And you still can get power and control on direct contact.


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Yinhe e-3
Nexy peter pan
Xiom all around s
Stiga arctic wood

Lightzy said:

I also hope carl could once point out to something specific i say which is incorrect instead of trying to impugn in general terms which are never specified. It is very unbecoming. I think it is also unbecoming of you, thomas, to encourage this kind of behavior in a forum for adults.
It is interesting from a sociological standpoint though? Ha

Click to expand...

Look Lightzy, what ticked me off, is that OP was asking for pretty simple straight forward advice about all-wood blades, and on post #4 you go on a confusing monologue about the carbon blades YOU've been toying with only to recommend an 11-ply carbon blade... jawdropping. I'm not trying to pick up a fight, rather point out the fact that giving wild advice to OP's seemingly simple questions is unbecoming, to use your words. On the other end, your posts of what makes a blade flexible are more thought out... and valuable.

I would recommend Xiom Musa Asia - its very similar to Primorac, but of highest quality with jointless veneer and seamless glue, limited edition, and at the same time is cheaper.

About carbon blades - Lightzy have mentioned Palio King Yue which is stiff but soft 7 wood+4 carbon, not very fast and with soft touch, feels dead and has no vibration, and he is right - its a very good blade.
I have a Palio V1 which is 7 wood + 4 carbon too , but is just the opposite - hard but flexible, with lighter hits feels like a 7 ply allwood blade capable of AR and has sensible vibrations, not dead, very dull sound, but with stronger hits goes to amazing off+ with nice high pitch.
So speaking of composite carbon blades the common general attitude may be not always applicable.

Most 5 ply all wood blades that have limba or ayous outer plies are known to be flexy and have good control/speed ratio.

yogi_bear said:

Most 5 ply all wood blades that have limba or ayous outer plies are known to be flexy and have good control/speed ratio.

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Indeed. The blades Carl and I have listed in this thread fit this criteria. There are many others.