Could EU teams cooperate closer?

jawien · Mar 22, 2018

Hi,
so the topic is not new, because there was some discussion about it on other threads.

The idea is, should/could EU national associations cooperate closer, specially before big events like WTT(T)Cs? Notice we are only talking about EU, not Japan, Korea or i.e. China.

The trigger for such an idea is China's famous "closed training" held before every world event. As of now such training has already started.

[WHY SUCH IDEA?]
As a European, I was fascinated what Sweden could do in the 1989, 91', 93' and 2000. And it was already 18 years ago ...
Considering our moderate "human resources", sport's popularity among young people and finances involved, wouldn't it be beneficial for separate associations in EU, to somehow unite their efforts?

[IDEAL]
So the players or national associations would have some sort of a "closed training" for about a month before major world events.

[CONS]
As I already mentioned, there was already some discussion and the main objections were:
- it is not necessary, because such international cooperation already happens on the club level in Europe.
- there are already strong private center in EU doing exactly that.
- the EU associations are competing against each other anyway, so it's hard to cooperate ...
- leading players in Europe would not be interested, because they have a good 2nd, 3rd position in the world and why should they jeopardize it by a common practicing?

[...]
So should we try to cooperate more, is there any space for it, what form should it take - if any?

zeio · Mar 22, 2018

Check out badminton for some ideas.

jawien · Mar 22, 2018

zeio said:
Check out badminton for some ideas.

Hi Zeio, any link?

RidTheKid · Mar 22, 2018

I believe the ITTF already tried to balance out the Chinese domination by making the ball bigger, hoping the Chinese wouldn't be able to produce as much power in their shots. But the Chinese decided to work even harder to compensate for their generally smaller physique.

To cooperate in the EU requires a lot of structural changes, bureucracy and logistics. Maybe it would work, maybe not. I have nothing against the best players coming from China, they deserve it.

WorkerBee · Mar 22, 2018

I feel that this discussion does not amount to much. For me, the main issue for dealing with the Chinese is tactics. What tactics are the Chinese using? What tactics are needed to defeat the Chinese? The two main examples I have are JO Waldner and Tomo Harimoto. In both cases, the Chinese players had/have better form and more training. Waldner and Tomo developed tactics aimed specifically against the Chinese players. The only thing holding Tomo back is size, strength, and age. I have yet to see a single article on the tactics used by J-O and Tomo, which is weird since each one advocates strict adherence to a set of 10 or so tactics essential to beating the Chinese.

jawien · Mar 22, 2018

RidTheKid said:
[...] To cooperate in the EU requires a lot of structural changes, bureucracy and logistics. Maybe it would work, maybe not. I have nothing against the best players coming from China, they deserve it.

I dare to say, incorporating players from China won't solve the problem. Despite some issues regarding if they would be a real representation of the sport in a particular country, they still would need to have a good training conditions and again rely on those limited resources ...

jawien · Mar 22, 2018

WorkerBee said:
[...] I have yet to see a single article on the tactics used by J-O and Tomo, which is weird since each one advocates strict adherence to a set of 10 or so tactics essential to beating the Chinese.

Be my guest and make posts about the tactics too. Although J-O's might be a bit outdated, don't you think ...?
Besides spreading tactics, increases the education.

RidTheKid · Mar 22, 2018

China still has a bigger pool of talent to pick from. Even if we narrow the gap China will come up with something to widen it again. Anything is possible, I just don't believe anyone can compete with them in the long run. They can be defeated in a match, tournament here and there, but the best players will come from China. Unless they suddenly grow tired of TT and put all that effort into football, which is the bigger sport there now.

jawien said:
Be my guest and make posts about the tactics too. Although J-O's might be a bit outdated, don't you think ...?
Besides spreading tactics, increases the education.

jawien · Mar 22, 2018

RidTheKid said:
China still has a bigger pool of talent to pick from. Even if we narrow the gap China will come up with something to widen it again. [...].

So the idea is to "increase the pool of talent". Also in the long run, Sweden was able to win WTTTC 3 times in a row, 1989 - 93'.

tutas_piotr · Mar 22, 2018

Making the ball bigger will not prevent chinese from being powerfull enough. Look at weightlifting (as an olympic sport). They are doing fine in 77KG and 85KG weightclass.

RidTheKid · Mar 22, 2018

Yes, did you read what I wrote?

tutas_piotr said:
Making the ball bigger will not prevent chinese from being powerfull enough. Look at weightlifting (as an olympic sport). They are doing fine in 77KG and 85KG weightclass.

RidTheKid · Mar 22, 2018

That will not be enough. The quality and quantity of training has to be increased.

Those were the golden years here. Sweden practiced specifically to beat China, to counter their style of play. But to do that you need high quality players. Sweden had several European champions on the team. Eric Lindh who was 5th on the world ranking at the time didn't even play a match in wtttc1989. We don't have nearly that ensemble of talent here now. When Källberg won 2 sets against Ma Long in wttc2017 it could be seen as a victory. Those aren't high enough ambitions.

jawien said:
So the idea is to "increase the pool of talent". Also in the long run, Sweden was able to win WTTTC 3 times in a row, 1989 - 93'.

tutas_piotr · Mar 22, 2018

RidTheKid said:
Yes, did you read what I wrote?

I did. The argument is used all the time (Asian race being weaker physically) so it was my general response. Not necessary directed to what you wrote.

RidTheKid · Mar 22, 2018

Point was that China will work even harder to be even better if ITTF create obstacles for them.

tutas_piotr said:
I did. The argument is used all the time (Asian race being weaker physically) so it was my general response. Not necessary directed to what you wrote.

jawien · Mar 22, 2018

RidTheKid said:
[...] Sweden practiced specifically to beat China, to counter their style of play. [...]

So ... what do you think happened with the idea? EU teams do not have specific training to counter the Chinese style any more?

RidTheKid · Mar 22, 2018

I personally think Chinese style is closing in on perfection.

jawien said:
So ... what do you think happened with the idea? EU teams do not have specific training to counter the Chinese style any more?

jawien · Mar 22, 2018

RidTheKid said:
I personally think Chinese style is closing in on perfection.

So ... "european style", with euro/jap rubbers would be generally inferior?

RidTheKid · Mar 22, 2018

European players need to get better in every possible area. I can't come up with one detail where we are better than them. Maybe serves if I really have to be optimistic

European footwork is lightyears behind the Chinese counterpart.

jawien said:
So ... "european style", with euro/jap rubbers would be generally inferior?

drunix80 · Mar 22, 2018

I can see Truls Moregard as a bigger threat to CNT than Harimoto in the future. He has already defeated many top junior CNT players in his age level . So did he need pan european alliance to achieve that ? Of course not. I think the main advantage of CNT is the incoming talent pool is extremely big and of high quality compared to any country . To achieve that there needs to be fundamental change at grass root level so thay youmg EU kids adopt TT more.

brimbaz · Mar 22, 2018

Truls style relies on ball positioning and forehand attack, backhand is more punch style.
I think that when the chinese he is playing grow in strenght it will be harder to maintain such type of play and not get overwhelmed by spinny FHs and BHs.

Europeans just need more training and more money put in to the sport. The chinese have a ridiculous player poll with amazing coaching since a young age.

Could EU teams cooperate closer?

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