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    1. Top | #21
      Atas Newton is offline
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      If only the Qatar sponsors realized no one gives a crap about table tennis in Qatar and decided to hold the event in China. A Platinum event that attracts 30 spectators is pathetic.

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    3. Top | #22
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      Quote Originally Posted by Atas Newton View Post
      If only the Qatar sponsors realized no one gives a crap about table tennis in Qatar and decided to hold the event in China. A Platinum event that attracts 30 spectators is pathetic.
      The padded thrones for the princes are a nice touch though.

    4. Top | #23
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      asia and europe events both count in ITTF ranking so you have ur answer.
      I suck real bad so I train to suck less

    5. Top | #24
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      Quote Originally Posted by WorkerBee View Post
      The European Cup is similar to the Asian Cup. I am more concerned with the imbalance of Chinese representation in the ITTF. There are 50 world class players in the Super League who are not even listed with the ITTF.

      This is classic mistake people do, not all chinese super league players are world class. They have much better fundamentals yes, but lack experience,creativity,mentalityor strong nerves however you want to call it compared to a top european player with flaws in his technique.

      classic examples are zhou yu, fang bo,liang jingkun, yan and probably all the youngsters who most likely choke and underperform in world events cause of the sudden change of environment .phrase in bold is LGL's assessment on why many chinese youngsters play poorly when in world tour events or generally outside chinese soil

      p.s. u can count wins/losses of dima ruy seung min and boll in the chinese super league, the results will surprise you, especially when u take into consideration that the chinese play their heart out against them
      Last edited by TTFrenzy; 03-27-2018 at 08:52 PM.

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    7. Top | #25
      UpSideDownCarl is online now
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      Why is European Top 16 Cup included in ITTF ranking but not The China Super League?

      Quote Originally Posted by Atas Newton View Post
      it's not politics, it's common sense.
      Actually, it is political agenda. You guys seem to want many players from China listed in the ITTF WR that, it seems from decades of evidence, that the CNT may not really want to be ranked internationally.

      China, the country that puts more money into its TT program than any other country, doesn’t seem to want a lot of somewhat good players on the international scene. They seem to want their best players to be the ones that represent the country.

      Perhaps they even are conscious of not overflowing the WR with players from China that would turn other countries away from TT. That would be called diplomacy.

      But, clearly, this is another one of those threads where a small group are voicing an agenda and, part of the agenda is that you want the way the CNT, and the ITTF are doing things to CHANGE. Even though I am not hearing the ITTF, the CNT or the Chinese government expressing the idea that any of them are remotely interested in this agenda.

      Is there any indication that CNT or ITTF have even considered your idea?

      All that being said, I do think it would be fine for there to be more tournaments in China that were on the ITTF World Tour.


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      Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 03-27-2018 at 10:16 PM.
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    9. Top | #26
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      Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl View Post
      ...it would be fine for there to be more tournaments in China that were on the ITTF World Tour. ...
      Really?

    10. Top | #27
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      https://www.ittf.com/2018/03/27/ittf...ks-2018-plans/
      ITTF CEO Dainton talks about a strategic plan that ITTF is making. Many changes are underway. ITTF really wants participation from all countries. They even want all countries to attend WTTTC. As for World Tour, ITTF only wants more top players, the stars to participate more in order to get better revenue. I don't think there are 50 CNT players can be called stars. As a matter of fact, in the past season of CTTSL, there are only 48 male players played, 9 did not win ANY match, 4 won only ONE match. (Check their ranks here: http://cttsl.sports.cn/grpm/) Seriously you want to watch them play internationally?


      "The idea is to drive more participation at the events," says Dainton. "What we hope to achieve is that the best players are competing at the top events all the time. If they are consistently competing, we are able to sell the events better to our broadcasters and to sponsors, and also our fans get to see the top players playing all the time. By guaranteeing that, it gives us a greater chance to improve these products and grow revenues."


      In reality, CNT cannot send 50 players to a world tour. ITTF limits 6 entries per association and WL all depends on WR and luck (when some others withdraw). CNT should not send 50 players to a world tour, too. Many players can easily lose to non-CNT players and boost the confidence of non-CNT players. CNT players, as well as non-CNT players, do not rely on the little ITTF prize money for a living. World Tour titles do not give CNT players more benefits than world/Asain/national champion title (team included); and to get the spot to represent China in world/Asain events, one needs to be among the best in internal trials and usually one can have good result in CTTSL (where the most of salary comes from) and national tournaments (where provincial incentives come from). When one is among the best of CNT, one has better chance to beat general non-CNT players, even the best non-CNT players.

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    12. Top | #28
      WorkerBee is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by rainneverever View Post
      ...I don't think there are 50 CNT players can be called stars. As a matter of fact, in the past season of CTTSL, there are only 48 male players played, 9 did not win ANY match, 4 won only ONE match. (Check their ranks here: http://cttsl.sports.cn/grpm/) Seriously you want to watch them play internationally? ...
      Dear Rain, I watched dozens of the Super League matches. The players you say are not stars because they lost so many matches were all amazing players, and I would love to watch them play internationally. Obviously not only against the top players in the CNT because they will always lose If Ma Long only plays against Xu Xin, should we say Xu Xin is not a star because he always loses against Ma Long? And this is exactly why we need to open up Chinese participation in the ITTF. The world is being deprived of playing with dozens of unbelievably great players because they never win against Ma Long and Fan Zhendong. But almost no-one else does either. Should we look at them as losers? When I was in my top form in younger days, I couldn't return any of such "losers" serves, let alone their loop attacks. And in those days, I played hundreds of players, all proud of how they played, and beat them all 11-1 or 11-2. This happens everywhere, every day. I read the ITTF CEO talk on and on about a magical strategic plan in the works, but the only thing he gets excited about is TTX, which is designed to play with a girlfriend on the beach in a bikini, not a solution to serious issues we face. He should at least read the Japanese T league documents or the watered down T2 APAC ones.

    13. Top | #29
      Atas Newton is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl View Post
      Actually, it is political agenda. You guys seem to want many players from China listed in the ITTF WR that, it seems from decades of evidence, that the CNT may not really want to be ranked internationally.
      sorry, Carl, I still fail to see what it has to do with politics if I just want to see more good players on the tour. Maybe them being Chinese makes it political, not for me though. WorkerBee mentioned T2 APAC which reminded me of a relevant example: Liu Fei and Shi Xunyao both did very well against strong international opposition, here's the final standings

      https://i.imgur.com/SXQl3qz.jpg
      When do we see them on the international stage? You guessed it, we don't. Granted, Shi Xunyao is still competing in juniors, but she's the same age as Sun Yingsha (who already made 3 finals and won 1) and as T2 showed she is well capable of beating established senior players.
      Last edited by Atas Newton; 03-28-2018 at 07:49 AM.

    14. Top | #30
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      Quote Originally Posted by tropical View Post
      I think the OP thought EU is a country.
      I don't think so - he wasn't from the US.

    15. Top | #31
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      Quote Originally Posted by Atas Newton View Post
      sorry, Carl, I still fail to see what it has to do with politics if I just want to see more good players on the tour. Maybe them being Chinese makes it political, not for me though.
      Perhaps this is a language issue and you don't quite understand what a political agenda is.

      CNT is not just the Chinese National Team but it is the governing body that decides the policies of the team. ITTF is the governing body of International Table Tennis. If you are trying to get CNT and ITTF to change their policies, then your actions which are part of trying to get those GOVERNING bodies to change their CURRENT POLICIES, are technically, perfect examples of POLITICAL ACTIVISM.

      But I also think, it seems that you and WorkerBee may not have fully understood the implications of this post from NextLevel:

      Quote Originally Posted by NextLevel View Post
      Why aren't you similarly concerned with soccer or tennis or the NBA? Germany and Brazil could field multiple national teams in the World Cup if permitted.
      Imagine World Cup Futball (Soccer) with 10 teams from Brazil and 7 teams from Germany and the final 8 teams (quarter finals round) being all teams from just Germany and Brazil. As an international tournament, it would totally lose the interest of THE WORLD.

      In 2011 in the quarter finals of the WTTC men's singles event, 6 of 8 quarterfinalists were from China. Of the 20 possible medals in 2011, China won 14. No country aside from China won any gold or silver medals. China won all 5 gold medals. All 5 silver medals. and 4 of 10 bronze medals. So, all other countries combined won 6 bronze medals.

      In 2013, in the semifinals of the WTTC, 4 of 4 semifinalists were from China. That year China also won 14 of the 20 possible medals. But Chinese Taipei won a gold in men's doubles and North Korea won a gold in mixed doubles. And South Korea won a silver in mixed doubles. So 3 of the 10 gold medals were won by countries other than China. But China won 7 of the 10 possible bronze medals.

      In 2015 4 of 4 men's semifinalists in the WTTC singles event were also from China. China received a half a gold medal for mixed doubles for Xu Xin of China playing with Yang Ha Eun of South Korea. China received 12.5 out of 20 medals. So fewer than in 2011 or 2013. However, China won Gold and Silver in Men's singles, Women's singles, Men's doubles and Women's doubles.

      In 2017 China won 9.5 out of 20 medals. But, notably, they won Gold in Men's Singles, Women's Singles, Men's Doubles and Women's Doubles. The did not win silver in Men's doubles. But they won Silver in Men's Singles, Women's Singles and Women's doubles.

      It seems to me that China understands why THEY do not want to flood the world rankings with players who are not their best prospects. My guess is the ITTF also does not want the world rankings flooded with so many players from just one country. With only 6 or 7 men's and 6 or 7 women's players from China playing internationally, they still dominate and make the rest of the world seem somewhat superfluous.

      You guys can still watch and appreciate the excellent provincial players in China Super League. But if you really think about what it would do to participation of the REST OF THE WORLD in TT events if ITTF and China decided to flood the world rankings with all these players, it actually would make International Table Tennis lose many viewers and much support.

      Read and see if you can understand Rain's excellent post. It is worth understanding what she is explaining.
      Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 03-28-2018 at 02:31 PM.

    16. Top | #32
      Atas Newton is offline
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      Of course there can't be more than 1 national team, but if it's an individual sport - it is a different picture. I enjoy watching snooker, e.g., where a very few countries dominate the entire sport. No one's complaining, because these countries field the strongest competitors. Imagine golf with 6 players per country maximum. That'd be absurd because golf is predominantly American, same with table tennis being predominantly Asian.

      Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl View Post
      Perhaps this is a language issue and you don't quite understand what a political agenda is.
      Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl View Post

      CNT is not just the Chinese National Team but it is the governing body that decides the policies of the team. ITTF is the governing body of International Table Tennis. If you are trying to get CNT and ITTF to change their policies, then your actions which are part of trying to get those GOVERNING bodies to change their CURRENT POLICIES, are technically, perfect examples of POLITICAL ACTIVISM.
      sorry you had to take time to explain this, but it becomes obvious that yes, it is a language issue. Although in my defense I gotta say the dictionaries define 'political' as relating to the government or public affairs of a country and that's what the word means where I live as well. Off-topic.
      Last edited by Atas Newton; 03-28-2018 at 02:39 PM.

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    18. Top | #33
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      Quote Originally Posted by Atas Newton View Post
      sorry you had to take time to explain this, but it becomes obvious that yes, it is a language issue. Although in my defense I gotta say the dictionaries define 'political' as relating to the government or public affairs of a country and that's what the word means where I live as well. Off-topic.
      Yes. And this is actually related to GOVERNMENT and Public Affairs. It is just WHAT Governing Bodies it is relating to. CNT and ITTF are, very literally, governing bodies. CNT decides policy which is public affairs, related to Chinese participation in the sport of TT. ITTF is THE GOVERNING BODY of International Table Tennis. So we can differentiate the governing bodies of countries from the governing bodies of the sport. USATT is the governing body of table tennis in USA. These are still political entities that decide policies and public affairs. In that sentence, those words just refer to the sport of table tennis and not to the governments of different countries.

      By the way, related issues are how people often blame ITTF for decisions made by IOC and different NOCs. IOC stands for International Olympic Committee. NOC is National Olympic Committee. Often table tennis players blame ITTF for policies about Olympic Table Tennis, like, the fact that only 2 players from any one country can play in the singles events for men and women. This is a decision made by the IOC not the ITTF. The specific reason was exactly what I was explaining about international play. IOC decided they did not want any one country to be able to win Gold, Silver and Bronze (all the medals) for any one event. And so they limited the number of entries per country to 2. ITTF is not the governing body that made that decision. IOC made that decision. But the decision was likely made for very similar reasons to why CNT only sends 6-8 players to play internationally at any given point in time.

      CNT is actually conscious of not wanting to flood the international rankings with too many players from China at one time. For sure, ITTF is conscious of this as well.

      Quote Originally Posted by Atas Newton View Post
      Of course there can't be more than 1 national team, but if it's an individual sport - it is a different picture. I enjoy watching snooker, e.g., where a very few countries dominate the entire sport. No one's complaining, because these countries field the strongest competitors. Imagine golf with 6 players per country maximum. That'd be absurd because golf is predominantly American, same with table tennis being predominantly Asian.
      1) You can watch and enjoy all those provincial players from China. Just go watch China Super League. In China Super League, they are not limiting the amount of players who can play. That is individual sport.
      2) International Table Tennis is not simply an individual sport. That is why, in International Play, the players are still listed by country. If it was just individual sport, they would list the player's name and not list the country the player is playing for. Take some time and think about it.....Perhaps you don't like the format. But that is the format.
      3) In golf tournaments, do they list the country of the player? Are different country teams competing against each other. In the NBA, do they list the countries of the players on their Jerseys? Or do they simply list the team and the name of the player? In Bundesliga, do they list the countries of the players? In leagues that are not part of ITTF, do they restrict players based on country flag and international affiliation? I think you are confusing international play with open play. The World Tour was developed by the ITTF to promote INTERNATIONAL cooperation and friendly competition. This is why countries like China are willing not to send everyone and would prefer to send their best 4-5 players and then rotate in 3-4 other players who they think have potential to maybe succeed on the international level.

      So, yes, it is great to have all those beautiful players from the Chinese provincial teams. Yes it is great to get to see them in LEAGUES like the Super League. But it is worth at least trying to understand why CHINA and the ITTF may not want to have more than a certain number of players, at a given time, from any one country being part of the International circuit.

      They are not stopping them from playing. But the international circuit is not meant for all players in the world to be part of. Think of how many excellent players in different leagues do not play internationally. So it is not just those players from Chinese provincial regions who are very good but do not compete on the International Circuit.
      Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 03-28-2018 at 03:28 PM.

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    20. Top | #34
      Atas Newton is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl View Post
      1) You can watch and enjoy all those provincial players from China. Just go watch China Super League. In China Super League, they are not limiting the amount of players who can play. That is individual sport.
      2) International Table Tennis is not simply an individual sport. That is why, in International Play, the players are still listed by country. If it was just individual sport, they would list the player's name and not list the country the player is playing for. Take some time and think about it.....Perhaps you don't like the format. But that is the format.
      3) In golf tournaments, do they list the country of the player? Are different country teams competing against each other. In the NBA, do they list the countries of the players on their Jerseys? Or do they simply list the team and the name of the player? In Bundesliga, do they list the countries of the players? In leagues that are not part of ITTF, do they restrict players based on country flag and international affiliation? I think you are confusing international play with open play. The World Tour was developed by the ITTF to promote INTERNATIONAL cooperation and friendly competition. This is why countries like China are willing not to send everyone and would prefer to send their best 4-5 players and then rotate in 3-4 other players who they think have potential to maybe succeed on the international level.

      So, yes, it is great to have all those beautiful players from the Chinese provincial teams. Yes it is great to get to see them in LEAGUES like the Super League. But it is worth at least trying to understand why CHINA and the ITTF may not want to have more than a certain number of players, at a given time, from any one country being part of the International circuit.

      They are not stopping them from playing. But the international circuit is not meant for all players in the world to be part of. Think of how many excellent players in different leagues do not play internationally. So it is not just those players from Chinese provincial regions who are very good but do not compete on the International Circuit.
      1) Works both ways so no comments.
      2-3) Of course they don't put country flags on jerseys in team sports. But they do it in tennis, they do it in snooker, in MMA, in sumo, Formula 1, chess, biathlon, fencing, weightlifting, swimming. In fact I'm having a hard time remembering a single individual sport where they don't. I never watched any golf so no idea why they don't do it there.

      International cooperation and friendly competition are just words. Friendly how? If you can't win - git gud, it's sports not a charity. Just lift whatever the limits there are for the number of athletes per coutry and see who survives. But that's just me doing rhetorics, because one thing you're certainly right about is that table tennis needs growth and being multinational helps with that. What pisses me off is the situation where someone practices table tennis all their life, is better than their foreign counterpart, but is then said "nah-uh! Are you ML, FZD, XX, ZJK or one of the 5-6 tier2 players? No? Tough luck, there's no place for you."

    21. Top | #35
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      The bottom line is China doesn't want to flood international events with their players to kill the already vulnerable sport. Just a mere number of 200 mil TT players/1.4 billion population will scare everyone off and dilute all events in such a way that no one from other nations will be interested in playing anymore. All ITTF events will become CNT's as the top 20 players are all Chinese. What a nightmare, huh?

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    23. Top | #36
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      Quote Originally Posted by tropical View Post
      The bottom line is China doesn't want to flood international events with their players to kill the already vulnerable sport. Just a mere number of 200 mil TT players/1.4 billion population will scare everyone off and dilute all events in such a way that no one from other nations will be interested in playing anymore. All ITTF events will become CNT's as the top 20 players are all Chinese. What a nightmare, huh?
      Nightmare? Why? A player is a player is a player. Nation schmation.

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    25. Top | #37
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      How about changing the ITTF headquarters to Shanghai? And requiring the ITTF staff to learn Mandarin? Harsh you say? Now you know how the best table tennis players have felt since the days of Barna. There have been many statements in this thread predicting the doom of the ITTF if a Beijing Open, a Shanghai Open, a Guangzhou Open and a Chungquin Open were added. This is the kind of hysteria heard in the whites-only country clubs in the '50s. I didn't buy it then, I don't buy it now. You have made it political, not me. There are many ways to bring the 200 million Chinese players into the International arena, from being mere spectators with a few heroes like now, to organizationally connected participants. I am expected to silently accept the situation based on arguments that would make many cringe. The love shown by table tennis players everywhere for the skills and personalities of Chinese players is indicative of the potential solutions that could be found by cooperative ideas and discussions.

    26. Top | #38
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      lol delusional fans. Guys come on you should realize and accept that any sport is business first, everything else will come 2nd. Take the ball changes for example, it was all about profit, letting all the chinese play will be disastrous. Even the chinese realized that (a bit late maybe) and they try to exchange knowledge with the west so that the sport will have a future for everyone. even for them

      We should also let 2-3 USA teams on basketball. track and field just because they are the best. or maybe 2-3 brazilian argentinian or top european teams in soccer. It wouldnt be so interesting for the rest of the world would it?

    27. The Following User Likes TTFrenzy's Post:

      UpSideDownCarl (03-28-2018)

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