Double serve like in tennis

Experimentally implement this in some lower league?

  • Yes

    Votes: 5 22.7%
  • No

    Votes: 17 77.3%

  • Total voters
    22
says Spin and more spin.
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Wait, you don't think I want to do what? Make decent comments to you? Because that's how you labeled his post. Not me, because I know his post was far from decency.

I don't think you want to have a personal argument with the moderator of the forum where you call the moderator names.

I am stepping out of my role in the discussion about this thread. I am directing you to take your time when you feel insulted. And to wait until you can respond without being mad.

In the post you read, you heard an insult. I heard someone make a recommendation that you could do some extra serve practice. You chose to hear the insult instead of the valid comment.

And the point I made in that long post was that there are too many instances of you attacking other forum members. You need to stop that now. If you want to debate a subject, that is fine. But if you are making personal attacks, you need to understand. That will not be tolerated. And you have made way too many of them in this thread.

If you feel attacked or insulted, you need to wait until you can respond with a semblance of decency.

Even in instances where people responded to you in a way that was not so nice, there are way to many instances of you responding with personal attacks. So please step back and respond with as much personal decency as you can.

I already acknowledged that in some of my comments I was trolling you for a response because I saw this tendency in you. I should not have done that. But I am not doing that now. No more personal attacks from you. Even if you feel you have been attacked. Please.
 
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Tbqh all I saw was a suggestion about the change which was received very negatively as it litrally is a terrible idea for all levels of play in terms of rallies.
There were plenty of reasonable comments explaining why and obviously some were not reasonable
That's expected when you bring up a big change where 90+% strongly disagree
But atlas you didn't even throw your toys out of the pram you started throwing them at anyone you could see.
If you want people to understand why you think this is a good idea explain the real benefits of it when challenged or you won't get anywhere. People in TT fear change..
Think about all the ball changes apparently every one of them was going to ruin TT completely yet almost no one gave up. It's always the way.
 
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sure. It was initially on rio2016.com/en/table-tennis but that website is long gone. It can still be accessed via archive.org/web. Some of it survived here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...Vy1_KYMubx38tKqTXWrtmQJXMY/edit#gid=380636782
Beware of the percentages though, average percentages are calculated incorrectly.

I made a new document that has a correct percentage in row 3. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1S5RJjMXYZyyY4PdtYwFawC3Vg_7-ftWgZDz_mjViyNo/edit?usp=sharing

I highly recommend that the forum members check out the data for themselves.
The real percentage of winning when serving is 52.61%. Losing is 47.39%. Which is huge.

The percentage problem comes from the fact that the 'average' was simply the average of the column, which is wrong, because Ma Long's average matters more than the player on the bottom's average, since Ma Long plays more matches (and the bottom players only play 1 match).

*******

Atas, I think you are interpreting the stats wrong here. Players are almost always performing better when it is their serve. Overall, they are definitely performing better.

There are two points I want to make:

1. If you want to see service advantage, you have to compare the serve won percentage to the receive won percentage. Simply saying that the serve won percentage is close to 50% and then claiming your point makes you look right. But when you look at the data set of the receive percentage, it is obvious that you are not right.

2. The difference seems to be 5-6%. A few percent might seem like a small difference, but it is actually huge when it comes to probability with repetition.
 

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Thanks for being constructive, songdavid98. The default approach when dealing with binomial distributions is to compare the value (52.6%) to the theoretical one (in our case 50%) and not to 1-p (47.4%). At least that's what someone does, if they were to test the hypothesis that the game is fair (i.e. we're expecting 50%). Thus, table tennis is not 5-6% off, it's 2.6% off in men's game and 3.3% in women's. It would be appropriate to compare the percentages if we were comparing two different distributions, e.g. table tennis vs tennis.

Another way to look at these numbers would be to evaluate their impact in actual games, which I did when arguing with Der_Echte's idea:
During Rio Olympics Men's Singles event servers won 52.6% of the points, i.e. a measly 1 point advantage per 3 games worth of serves
1 point in 3 games worth of serves (and that's being generous and assuming each game has 11 serves) comes from the fact that 33*.526 - 33*.5 = 1 approximately. I.e. if I were to serve 33 times and was expected to convert 52.6% of those, the score would've been 17-16 in my favor (or, to be precise, 17.358 - 15.642 but scores are integer-valued so I rounded them off). Everything else is your interpretation. I interpret this as a tiny advantage.

Yet another way to help yourself make sense of the number is to compare the percentages with something that's already considered balanced and with good reason. Like chess. That I also did:
In fact, tha game of table tennis is far more balanced than chess, renowned for its fairness and long thought to be completely fair (draw if both play perfectly). Turns out, white win 10% more frequently.
To be fair if the game is played by chess engines (computers), which play way, way, wa-a-a-y better than any human, white "only" wins in 55% of non-drawn games.

We can also compare table tennis to something less balanced. Like tennis! There players routinely win 70-75% of their service points. Now that is a game where serve is hugely impactful. So there you go :)
 
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2. The difference seems to be 5-6%. A few percent might seem like a small difference, but it is actually huge when it comes to probability with repetition.

Yep - if you were a casino owner and blackjack dealer had that kind of advantage at every hand you would LOVE it (but probably not for long, as paying customers would dry down very quickly).
 
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Yep - if you were a casino owner and blackjack dealer had that kind of advantage at every hand you would LOVE it (but probably not for long, as paying customers would dry down very quickly).
naturally. But we're not comparing table tennis to casinos and I didn't claim the servers advantage doesn't exist at all. It does exist, it is consistent, but it is very small. Again, to better understand it in terms of table tennis, it's best to convert the percentages into points, see the post above.
 
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The percentage problem comes from the fact that the 'average' was simply the average of the column, which is wrong, because Ma Long's average matters more than the player on the bottom's average, since Ma Long plays more matches (and the bottom players only play 1 match).
not quite. The problem comes from averaging the percentages which is nonsense, one does not simply average the percentages :)
 
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not quite. The problem comes from averaging the percentages which is nonsense, one does not simply average the percentages :)

Yep, learned last 3 or so comments - have to appreciate it guys. Thanks Atas.
70 - 75% in tennis hah. About those big servers, luckily they don't do well while receiving either, so the scores between guys like Raonic, Karlovic vs Roger, Djokobic usually are about 6-7(5), 6-7(5) ... ; )
 
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says Spin and more spin.
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I do think there was, at one point, a much bigger advantage from the serve before the modern rules about tossing the ball and making the contact visible.

And even if pros today make their serves as close to borderline—as close to against the rules—as they can, it still is not the same as how it was in the hidden serve days.

But there are also players like Schlager and He Zhi Wen who would win matches because of having a really dominant serves. I definitely know a few players who are quite good, semi-pro level. But whose serves are so good that it kicks them up another level or two.

So, there are guys who can really rely on their serves. But, I kind of feel like the game is better when a player’s overall skills and receive of serve skills are up to par.

When someone is dominating largely because of their serve, the person winning easy points on serve often feels insecure, like they would be worse without the serves. The opponent feels frustrated and upset: as if, it was mainly the serves and giving easy points away that was causing them to get beat so badly. And if there are people watching, someone really dominating with serves is really boring to watch. It just looks like inept mess up after mess up.

But I guess I am still the kind of guy who is more interested in training than competition anyway. And that will always limit my level. I look better in practice than I am. [emoji2]


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy
 
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