Count me out as a ZJK fan.

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No one is bagging on him for winning games he just doesn't appear to have as much respect for his team mates as others and no we aren't 'diminishing our sport' that is a ridiculous claim, this is a forum and this is what it's for. Table Tennis as you have said before is about getting together and meeting people as well as competing, we are just saying that we don't approve of him publicly showing disrespect to his team mates, that's not what our sport is about and if you think it is maybe you are diminishing the sport not us.

I guess ZJK just says what he thinks, maybe not always smart but he doesn't lie when someone asks his opinion. He sets the bar high for himself because he loves playing under pressure, that's when he is at his best and enjoys winning the most. That is an attitude I like, not being afraid of taking a crown. But I understand it can be perceived as disrespecful, but I don't see it that way. He knows by experience how hard it is and what amount of work is needed to get on the Chinese team. I bet he will respect his teammates for achieving that. But you can't really tell that from a couple of interviews. It is a little bit easy judged imo to trash him for that.
 
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I don't know if I can agree with this comment. If anything, overall the Chinese players are some of the most calm and respectful players out there. They don't do a lot of ridiculous and rash stuff that many other table tennis players do. I feel like there is a lot of built up resentment against Chinese players, because they dominate the sport, and because most of the people we meet on international forums are not Chinese, and therefore normally back western players, the resentment is magnified because you begin to think everyone has the same view as you and thus its OK.

People end up dwelling on every little thing that a Chinese player does that they feel is negative, while basically turning a blind eye on things that they do that exemplify their positive traits. The complaint of the original poster about the smiling in the match against Joo, is one clear example. One smile?!?! that frankly sounds pretty ridiculous of a complaint to me. Who knows what the context was, or what ZJK meant by it. Over the course of an entire game, players show a wide range of emotion, and that smile could be perfectly harmless with no ill will behind it. Joo has played in the Chines super league, been around the pro scene a long time, I doubt there is any ill will between him or ZJK. In fact the Chinese players tend to have a very good relationship with their japanese and korean counterparts.

At list they need to learn how to shake hands after the game. have you seen a tennis player after losing or winning a Grand Slam? Or Waldner or any European player? The chinese are very cold in this aspect, sometimes a warm and respectful compliment can turn any sign of respect.
 
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At list they need to learn how to shake hands after the game. have you seen a tennis player after losing or winning a Grand Slam? Or Waldner or any European player? The chinese are very cold in this aspect, sometimes a warm and respectful compliment can turn any sign of respect.

In a team event or whatever the handshake with their coach and teammates is similar to the handshake with the opponent. It is not disrespectful at all, just less of a habit maybe. Again it is just how you perceive it. I really don't think there are many table tennis players around who purposely ignore or disrespect others in public, neither when they are not in public.

In previous posts someone mentioned ZJK being disprespectful to WH, whereas the Chinese commentator at ITTV mentioned they train alot together and are good friends. You can't really tell everything from public performances, matches, facial expressions or interviews. If you want to, you'll always find something that indicates direspect. But most of the time I think it is just negative perception that starts rumours like this.
 
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At list they need to learn how to shake hands after the game. have you seen a tennis player after losing or winning a Grand Slam? Or Waldner or any European player? The chinese are very cold in this aspect, sometimes a warm and respectful compliment can turn any sign of respect.

What? the Chinese players always shake hands after a match. Even if they aren't happy about it, they still will shake hands for the most part, which is better than some European players who will go as far to purposely refuse to shake hands.

The fact is, Chinese players have a much closer tie to the country than other players. Chinese are brought up in the Chinese government sports system, there is the understanding that they represent the state, and therefore they should be polite and have a good image of themselves. That's just not the same for most other countries, in Europe, you are your own separate athlete, yes you represent the country in some tournaments but for the most part you are your own player, and there is nowhere as big of a consideration of whether you are bringing a good image to your country or not.
 
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I am a Chinese myself, and I watch the interviews directly, not by translation.

Yes, thats what I was saying, me too. After hearing what the Chinese player says in Chinese, I then hear what the Chinese to english translator says, and half the time, its either completely wrong or only half right, or missing the overall tone of what the Chinese player is trying to get across.
 
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I just think that there is a fine line between cockiness and confidence. No doubt, ZJK is flying now and his confidence is sky high. But we must also respect our opponents, without good opponents you can't be great. So thanking your opponents and acknowledging their efforts should be the priority, not putting them down.

I remember The Greatest, Muhammad Ali (Cassius Marcellus Clay, Jr) said. With all his over the top taunting and cockiness, he always acknowledge his opponents after a fight. He said, without Frazer, Spinks, Cooper, Liston etc..."I am no one without them". But that's boxing, it's part and parcel of the game.



For all it's worth, I have never seen or heard any pro tennis player saying or even acting disrespectfully to their opponents. Thanking your opponent first when you win is the true sign of a good sport. Nadal once said after he won the Wimbledon title, "I won because I was lucky. Federer was not on top of his game. On his good day he can beat me every time". Speaking like a true champion that he is.....

About what ZJK said, I don't think his team mates even give a monkey. He probably was just screwing around, and the whole thing was taken out of context..probably.

I mean, I doubt you can say that Muhammad Ali didn't at any time talk disrespectfully to his fighter, before or after the fight. There are plenty of videos out there that shows clearly that ZJK does respect his opponents. In his reportage, he openly admitted that Ma Long is his most difficult opponent and has a horrible record against Ma Long. We can't just take one or two separate little incidents of talking and equate that to a player's entire viewpoint and personality. If we did that, every freaken athlete could be seen as pretty cocky and arrogant. You take any big athlete in any sport, and sometime or another he will have done something that outrages some people, or can be viewed as cocky.
 
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When ZJK went to shake Wang Hao's hand, his face seemed just happy and gracious. It wasn't the face of someone who was trying to demean his opponent.

How many times have we seen soccer or basketball fans take off their shirts and throw them into the crowd to their fans? Thats such a common thing to see.... The WTTC, he ripped off his shirt out of pure joy and emotion, I don't see that big of a deal with it. Here, he took off his shirt to throw into the crowd. I don't see that as being cocky or arrogant, if anything thats an awesome gesture to the fans. Think of how happy the fan who got that was. And then immediately after that, when he grabbed his towel, he waved to the crowd all around him, that to me seems to show he was being gracious and was appreciating the fans support, not really that he was being arrogant.
 
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When ZJK went to shake Wang Hao's hand, his face seemed just happy and gracious. It wasn't the face of someone who was trying to demean his opponent.

How many times have we seen soccer or basketball fans take off their shirts and throw them into the crowd to their fans? Thats such a common thing to see.... The WTTC, he ripped off his shirt out of pure joy and emotion, I don't see that big of a deal with it. Here, he took off his shirt to throw into the crowd. I don't see that as being cocky or arrogant, if anything thats an awesome gesture to the fans. Think of how happy the fan who got that was. And then immediately after that, when he grabbed his towel, he waved to the crowd all around him, that to me seems to show he was being gracious and was appreciating the fans support, not really that he was being arrogant.

I don't mean the celebration, I mean what he said. They are his team mates for god's sake. I don't think there's anything wrong with the celebration. As Ali's case, I did say it's part and parcel of the game. It's boxing. They trash talk one another. It's a show. But him acknowledging the other fighters were true. Again, let me stress here, there was nothing wrong with ZJK celebrations. After you shake the hands of your opponents, you can run stark naked around the stadium for all I care.
 
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Most of the Chinese not even look at the eyes of the opponent when shaking hands. See Federer, Nadal, Djokovic or any top tennis player and compare against any chinese player. You can say the same about the girls too. Hey guys, you practice 5 days a week with a team mate and not even a CONGRATULATIONS after a game?
I think we Brazilians are too friendly to this game.....
 
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Most of the Chinese not even look at the eyes of the opponent when shaking hands. See Federer, Nadal, Djokovic or any top tennis player and compare against any chinese player. You can say the same about the girls too. Hey guys, you practice 5 days a week with a team mate and not even a CONGRATULATIONS after a game?
I think we Brazilians are too friendly to this game.....

I mean, I think they do look at their opponents when they shake hands, and even if they didn't that could be an aspect of culture, and has nothing to do with being disrespectful. You will rarely find people as gracious as Chinese and as friendly as Chinese when inviting guests to their home. There are so many examples of Federer or Djokovic doing unsportsmenlike conduct, that if you just took one little example, its just as easy to reach the conclusion that they are arrogant etc. Federer in particular gets this rep about being such a great sportsmen, but if you look really carefully, its not true. The only reason why he went from being a player that had horrible temper tantrums to one that was "a great sportsmen" was because he started winning everything. Its easy to be polite and gracious when you win. Whenever he actually lost a match, you can clearly see he isn't the amazing image he is made out to be. One time after a match against Murray, which Federer lost, instead of congratulating his opponent, Federer in an interview said, oh well I was disappointed with his performance and development, he played me using the same style that he used last time we played where he beat me also, in which case Murray responded, well of course i did, if its a style that works why change.

We are also ignoring the fact that athletes, tend to be good because they are very aggressive. High levels of testosterone has a very close connection in regards to how good of an athlete you are. In addition, instead of spending time to learn and develop normal social normals, athletes have invested their entire life into perfecting their sport. Its the reason why most of them aren't that well educated, are that well spoken, and its also why attitude-wise, they tend to do somethings over the top or more aggressively than, we, as a normal individual view is necessary. Its unfair to place our own judgment on these people, because we didn't grow up with their experiences, and aren't born as aggressive as many of these people are. Lets look at the Zidane headbutt, for any normal average individual, would that seriously be the response you would take even if someone was talking bad about your family? It seems ridiculous to us, but yet for aggressive high testosterone athletes, its not that uncommon.
 
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Most of the Chinese not even look at the eyes of the opponent when shaking hands. See Federer, Nadal, Djokovic or any top tennis player and compare against any chinese player. You can say the same about the girls too. Hey guys, you practice 5 days a week with a team mate and not even a CONGRATULATIONS after a game?
I think we Brazilians are too friendly to this game.....

I mean, I think they do look at their opponents when they shake hands, and even if they didn't that could be an aspect of culture, and has nothing to do with being disrespectful. You will rarely find people as gracious as Chinese and as friendly as Chinese when inviting guests to their home. There are so many examples of Federer or Djokovic doing unsportsmenlike conduct, that if you just took one little example, its just as easy to reach the conclusion that they are arrogant etc. Federer in particular gets this rep about being such a great sportsmen, but if you look really carefully, its not true. The only reason why he went from being a player that had horrible temper tantrums to one that was "a great sportsmen" was because he started winning everything. Its easy to be polite and gracious when you win. Whenever he actually lost a match, you can clearly see he isn't the amazing image he is made out to be. One time after a match against Murray, which Federer lost, instead of congratulating his opponent, Federer in an interview said, oh well I was disappointed with his performance and development, he played me using the same style that he used last time we played where he beat me also, in which case Murray responded, well of course i did, if its a style that works why change.

We are also ignoring the fact that athletes, tend to be good because they are very aggressive. High levels of testosterone has a very close connection in regards to how good of an athlete you are. In addition, instead of spending time to learn and develop normal social normals, athletes have invested their entire life into perfecting their sport. Its the reason why most of them aren't that well educated, are that well spoken, and its also why attitude-wise, they tend to do somethings over the top or more aggressively than, we, as a normal individual view is necessary. Its unfair to place our own judgment on these people, because we didn't grow up with their experiences, and aren't born as aggressive as many of these people are. Lets look at the Zidane headbutt, for any normal average individual, would that seriously be the response you would take even if someone was talking bad about your family? It seems ridiculous to us, but yet for aggressive high testosterone athletes, its not that uncommon.
 
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I mean, I think they do look at their opponents when they shake hands, and even if they didn't that could be an aspect of culture, and has nothing to do with being disrespectful. You will rarely find people as gracious as Chinese and as friendly as Chinese when inviting guests to their home. There are so many examples of Federer or Djokovic doing unsportsmenlike conduct, that if you just took one little example, its just as easy to reach the conclusion that they are arrogant etc. Federer in particular gets this rep about being such a great sportsmen, but if you look really carefully, its not true. The only reason why he went from being a player that had horrible temper tantrums to one that was "a great sportsmen" was because he started winning everything. Its easy to be polite and gracious when you win. Whenever he actually lost a match, you can clearly see he isn't the amazing image he is made out to be. One time after a match against Murray, which Federer lost, instead of congratulating his opponent, Federer in an interview said, oh well I was disappointed with his performance and development, he played me using the same style that he used last time we played where he beat me also, in which case Murray responded, well of course i did, if its a style that works why change.

We are also ignoring the fact that athletes, tend to be good because they are very aggressive. High levels of testosterone has a very close connection in regards to how good of an athlete you are. In addition, instead of spending time to learn and develop normal social normals, athletes have invested their entire life into perfecting their sport. Its the reason why most of them aren't that well educated, are that well spoken, and its also why attitude-wise, they tend to do somethings over the top or more aggressively than, we, as a normal individual view is necessary. Its unfair to place our own judgment on these people, because we didn't grow up with their experiences, and aren't born as aggressive as many of these people are. Lets look at the Zidane headbutt, for any normal average individual, would that seriously be the response you would take even if someone was talking bad about your family? It seems ridiculous to us, but yet for aggressive high testosterone athletes, its not that uncommon.

I'm sorry but you do not have real opinion about Federer's life and sportsmanship. 99% of the TT games involving the Chinese top players you can seen that attitude in the end of the games, and maybe 5% on a tennis court. Maybe a lot in junior games. Would you say that TT is barely different from Tennis? I have been in China a couple of times and I do understand that behavior is a culture matter, but I still think is a point they should grow. We know a lot about a behavior and character when you put a men under pressure and an intensity exposure. Their intensity and desire of be the number #1 in a country with so low expectations could create this kind individual. Like Agassi said once, image is everything, and as most of them could be the nicest person in the TT room, the image of them to us remain as selfish and arrogant.
 
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I'm sorry but you do not have real opinion about Federer's life and sportsmanship. 99% of the TT games involving the Chinese top players you can seen that attitude in the end of the games, and maybe 5% on a tennis court. Maybe a lot in junior games. Would you say that TT is barely different from Tennis? I have been in China a couple of times and I do understand that behavior is a culture matter, but I still think is a point they should grow. We know a lot about a behavior and character when you put a men under pressure and an intensity exposure. Their intensity and desire of be the number #1 in a country with so low expectations could create this kind individual. Like Agassi said once, image is everything, and as most of them could be the nicest person in the TT room, the image of them to us remain as selfish and arrogant.

That is still just your opinion. There is no TT player that I would qualify as selfish and arrogant. In my opinion, Zhang Jike has built a great image and he should continue to do so.
 
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i think its somehow about friendchip and respect even in the chinese team. wang hao and zhang jike are good friends. so their handshakes are friendly. even when wang hao lost the finale in rotterdam he smiled, because zhang jike couldnt believe it. the same is on ma long and xu xin. they are "the kids" in the team and the funny guys and good friends too.
but watch the handshakes between ma long and zhang jike on austrian open. it wasnt a clap. just a short handshake you give, when you say hello or goodbye. i dont think, they like each other very much.
but yeah .. i think the chineses have to learn handhsakes ;) but its probably because its the mainsport and they are under big pressure and are "not allowed" to lose.
but i think to learn english is the first step to make theirselves more sympathic. i think they could smile in the interviews as well. the only ones who are enjoying interviews are ma long and ding ning i think. they look at the interviewer and do fun and laugh. the other players are just like could hearted monsters .. muhahahaah :D
 
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Just sayin tho..
In reality most of us are playing in a club with mostly friendly people or maybe somewhere else without that much pressure.
Once one got into a competition and they could feel the heat and pressure, one's 'character' could change.
Its always the pressure. I think..

I myself don't change by much, but maybe because it is only a school competition. I dunno if I get to a higher competition. Once I am playing in a regional tournament where I got stuck in the pool. I behave just right but with more self chos :) In the end I still shake the hand of my opponent with respect, making eye contact and smiling.
Huff, I think its still much affected by one's nature, and background.
 
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OKEY! Everybody... I think most people in here need to learn a bit of "what the heck is good sportsmanship". It is NOT rude to celebrate by ripping your shirt, og jumping amongst the crowd. TT needs this, no one wants to see a bunch of mummys-boys walking around hitting a ball. Why not remove scoreboards and give all the same bats as well?

No. Let him celebrate, and let him bring TT into TV, newspapers and other media!

thanks :)
 
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I'm sorry but you do not have real opinion about Federer's life and sportsmanship. 99% of the TT games involving the Chinese top players you can seen that attitude in the end of the games, and maybe 5% on a tennis court. Maybe a lot in junior games. Would you say that TT is barely different from Tennis? I have been in China a couple of times and I do understand that behavior is a culture matter, but I still think is a point they should grow. We know a lot about a behavior and character when you put a men under pressure and an intensity exposure. Their intensity and desire of be the number #1 in a country with so low expectations could create this kind individual. Like Agassi said once, image is everything, and as most of them could be the nicest person in the TT room, the image of them to us remain as selfish and arrogant.

I don't have a real opinion about federer? what is that supposed to mean?

Frankly, I think you and a lot of people are seeing what they want to see. When you come in with a bias thinking Chinese are not polite and have a bad attitude, then every little thing that they do, that can possibly be read as being disrespectful, you are going to see it that way, even if the player did not mean to be disrespectful at all from such action. There is no doubt that the Chinese players tend to be less emotional/ all business when they play. But I don't think that in any way translates to them being disrespectful, or rude in anyway. We see the same thing with Kobe, those who love Kobe, view it as oh man, look at his unwavering focus, when he is playing his demeanor is like ice, not friendly, like an assassin. And most of the people love that, but those who dislike Kobe view that, and say, what an a hole. The Chinese players are very focused so they tend to show very little emotion, and because non Chinese fans resent China's dominance, their bias is to think, oh how like machines they are, when they could just as easily view that behavior in the same positive light as they view Kobe's behavior.

No offense, but you saying you think China's culture can grow, sounds like classic cultural imperialism/arrogance. We are all guilty of it in some fashion. Because we live and are used to our own culture, we think its the civilized, and correct way of doing things, and therefore, those who don't do things are way, have a need to grow. Why should China's culture "grow" in anyway that western views find more acceptable? Its like how a following comment says that Chinese should learn to better handshake. Why? why shouldn't more western players learn to bow or something? or some other way of showing respect.
 
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I know my comments are turning quite political, which isn't in the vein of this nice forum where we share our ideas with fellow table tennis lovers, but I still think its important to get a different view across, at least so people who don't see things the same way at least get a view of the other side of the matter.
 
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