Sandpaper vs. Sponge

berndtjgmann · Apr 5, 2018

Sandpaper vs. Sponge (Leibovitz vs. David)

$24.99 Table Tennis Nation Paddle Proves Ping Pong Paddle Superiority
In serious match conditions, the Table Tennis Nation sandpaper paddle ($24.99 on TableTennisNation.com) demonstrated that spending hundreds on table tennis rackets is not the key to victory.

Chappaqua, NY -- (SBWIRE) -- 02/04/2013 -- On Friday January 18, 2013 at SPiN New York, the Table Tennis Nation paddle proved it could best sponge paddles costing eight times more and claimed the title of Best Paddle in the World. After a string of successful table tennis matches by amateur players around the world, the Table Tennis Nation paddle proved under money match conditions that it helps players win as Tahl Leibovitz used the paddle to defeat Paul David in straight sets.

The match pitted Tahl Leibovitz against Paul David. Leibovitz is a Paralympic Gold Medalist and the number 6 IPC player in the world; he is rated 2391 by the USATT, the independent US table tennis rating organization (higher is better). Paul David is a World Championship player who has been on the Guyana National Table Tennis Team since 1991, he was the 2012 Caribbean Bronze Medalist and is a top 50 player in the United States. David is currently rated 2437 by the USATT.

Despite Paul David being the superior player according to the USATT and using a sponge (soft rubber) paddle that retails for approximately $200, he was defeated by Leibovitz who used the standard Table Tennis Nation paddle. The Table Tennis Nation paddle features 9 layers of wood , 2 layers of carbon, and a 25% larger face. The paddle is designed to make the game easier for beginners and more exciting for pros. As Leibovitz helped prove, the paddle also helps players defeat expensive sponge paddles by eliminating the effect of the sponge’s spin.

Paul David was confident before the match saying that Leibovitz “couldn’t win with sponge, let alone sandpaper.” The crowd at SPiN also thought Paul David was the favorite as well, but the match turned early when it became clear that the sponge paddle’s biggest advantage, a tricky, unpredictable serve, was negated by the Table Tennis Nation paddle.

The match was played for a prize of $200 in conjunction with a tribute night to the late Marty Reisman, the most famous American table tennis player, and the designer of the Table Tennis Nation paddle. Reisman, whose career was famously derailed by the rise of the sponge paddle, was an adamant opponent of the soft rubber paddles and built the Table Tennis Nation paddle not only to make the game easier for beginners, but to help top players unseat the sponge paddle as the racket of choice. Reisman was planning the sponge vs. Table Tennis Nation challenge matches before he passed.

“We can think of no better tribute to Marty Reisman than to see sponge defeated by the Table Tennis Nation paddle he designed. This is proof that the sponge paddle is a flawed part of modern table tennis and players of all abilities need to look to an alternative like the Table Tennis Nation paddle,” said Cooper Fallek, Table Tennis Nation’s new President.

The Table Tennis Nation paddle has been a prominent part of the changing table tennis scene. The paddle was recently used as the basis for the paddle used by all players in January’s made-for-British TV World Championship of Ping Pong. The event’s promoters touted the longer rallies and more exciting points facilitated by the paddle’

Unlike the sponge paddles used by most top players, the Table Tennis Nation paddle does not require expensive maintenance of its rubber sheets and is available ready-to-play for $24.99 plus shipping from TableTennisNation.com .

Bwah ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!! Nyuk nyuk nyuk nyuk!!!. Well who knows what that really proves, except that Tahl Leibovitz is one seriously murderous azz-kicker with the sand, the ITTF really blew it back in '59 when they went ahead and banned the sand, and that at $24.99 plus shipping from TT Nation the very same racket used at the World Championships of Ping Pong is a real good deal. If you can come up with the game Tahl's got, who needs boosters, serves from the general vicinity of the yinyyang, and all that nanotensor squishy stuff?

Check out the Leibovitz vs. David match on the Sandpaper vs. Sponge 2 video on Youtube.

Atas Newton · Apr 5, 2018

It is not quite clear from your post so let me just ask: how much is the sandpaper paddle? And where can I buy one, again?

ajtatosmano2 · Apr 5, 2018

I still can't see players with double long pips or anti in the top 100. But whatever. I enjoy TT because of the spin.

Andy44 · Apr 5, 2018

Berndt, did you ever make a serious effort to get good playing with sponge rubber?

berndtjgmann · Apr 6, 2018

Andy44 said:
Berndt, did you ever make a serious effort to get good playing with sponge rubber?

Oh sure. My highest rating with sponge rubber was 1764 (USTTA, before USTTA became USATT) in 1972. This would probably translate into about, oh, um, er, maybe I dunno 2050 today. In 1972 I was 30 years old. I was either the number 1 or number 2 player at Ohio State University depending on whether my attack plus chops all-round game could outlast John Liu's three-ball lefty classic penholder attack. As I remember I used Sriver on my Car Du Buy blade and John Friendship 729 on his Double Happiness 6-ply Cpen.

berndtjgmann · Apr 6, 2018

Atas Newton said:
It is not quite clear from your post so let me just ask: how much is the sandpaper paddle? And where can I buy one, again?

Here you are, Atas:

The Table Tennis Nation paddle does not require expensive maintenance of its rubber sheets and is available ready-to-play for $24.99 plus shipping from TableTennisNation.com .

talbon · Apr 6, 2018

How do I know that I'm not buying a fake Table Tennis Nation paddle? Do they have anti-counterfeiting technology? A shiny hologram of Marty Reisman losing the world championship? A unique blade ID, in morse, somewhere on the blade face?

I bought a quilted, 3-layer, aloe vera perfumed Table Tennis Nation paddle with a recyclable handle (because the sandpaper one felt a bit rough). Is it genuine?

Andy44 · Apr 6, 2018

berndtjgmann said:
Oh sure. My highest rating with sponge rubber was 1764 (USTTA, before USTTA became USATT) in 1972. This would probably translate into about, oh, um, er, maybe I dunno 2050 today. In 1972 I was 30 years old. I was either the number 1 or number 2 player at Ohio State University depending on whether my attack plus chops all-round game could outlast John Liu's three-ball lefty classic penholder attack. As I remember I used Sriver on my Car Du Buy blade and John Friendship 729 on his Double Happiness 6-ply Cpen.

So you have to appreciate the contemporary game on some level, right? Even if you prefer hard bat as a player or spectator. Thirty year old Berndt in 1972 would have to be amazed if, right after an episode of All in the Family, a glitch in time caused the 2017 world championship match between Ma Long and FZD to appear the TV screen. He'd probably think it was some kind of fancy trick photography. Nobody could be that good.

UpSideDownCarl · Apr 6, 2018

berndtjgmann, I am reading your future in the tea leaves. And the tea leaves are telling me that you are destined to start a Hardbat Ping Pong forum and become so successful with your Ping Pong forum that you forget all about Table Tennis and its sponge rubbers and boosters and then you will forget all about TTDaily.

If you build it, they will come.

berndtjgmann · Apr 6, 2018

UpSideDownCarl said:
berndtjgmann, I am reading your future in the tea leaves. And the tea leaves are telling me that you are destined to start a Hardbat Ping Pong forum and become so successful with your Ping Pong forum that you forget all about Table Tennis and its sponge rubbers and boosters and then you will forget all about TTDaily.

If you build it, they will come.

Verily I say unto thee: it will indeed fall unto my lot to start a Hardhat Ping Pong forum, but not before I cast off earthly bonds to ascend to Hard Rubber Heaven to take my place among the lesser hard rubber immortals who happened to have majored in journalism in college.

In the meantime, how about giving it up for the incredible Tahl Leibovitz, all 2391 points of him, who dropkicked the formidable very model of a 2437 rated glockponger Paul David at Susan Sarandon's SPin club back in '14 sand to sponge, picking up 200 quid, which for an American player ain't gonna get you a down payment on a Lamborghini but for an American ponger wasn't exactly chump change either?

Baal · Apr 6, 2018

What boosters work best with sandpaper? And what grade of sandpaper works best with 40+ balls? Finally is National sandpaper better than Provincial and is mine fake?

UpSideDownCarl · Apr 6, 2018

I will have to talk to Tahl and Paul. They are both my friends and I think you must have misunderstood something.

langel · Apr 6, 2018

I started to play TT in the middle of the 70's with a hardbat. At that time there were no "sandwiches" here. I took my first "sandwich" in the early 80's.
I think that a sandpaper can beat only a much weaker hiter sponger.

NDH · Apr 6, 2018

I don't normally feed the trolls - But I'll make an exception here, as I feel I have something to contribute.

I'm not really sure what your point is here? That a "cheap hard bat can beat an expensive bat"? Well..... yeah..... I don't think that's news is it?

Or is your point that simply a hardbat/sandpaper bat can beat a sponge bat?

So, for those who are actually reading this thread and genuinely given it a bit of thought, you'll be pleased to know that I play with one of the WORLD's top sandpaper/hard bat players - He recently reached the last 32 at the World Ping Pong Championships.

He plays with a hard bat in the local leagues (there only person who does), and does very well.

However.... Here are some caveats.

1. He has to be on top of his game every time he plays. There is no margin for error, and if he's off - He'll lose easily.
2. The "advantage" he has is that he is used to playing against sponge, yet his opposition is NOT used to playing against hard bat. Before you know it, he can win 3-0 without breaking a sweat.
3. You have to be an excellent mover - He has the best footwork of anyone I know - To make up for the lack of pace/spin you generate, you need to be quick on your feet.
4. If you play with a hard bat against sponge, you need to attack - Defends won't win in those situations.

I'm sure many of you have tried hard bats, but if you haven't, let me be the first to say it is VERY hard to play well with.

I'm a decent player with sponge, but I can't play well with a hard bat at all - It really is a skill, and when you watch them attack, you have to admire at how good they are! It looks easy, but is incredibly hard.

However..... A good sponge player will have a much higher ceiling than a good hard bat player.

If you happen to be very good playing with a hard bat, you'll probably be one of the best players in your region - But as soon as you come up against a top top sponge player, you'll come undone very quickly.

UpSideDownCarl · Apr 6, 2018

And the word I have from Mr Paul David is that that match between Paul and Tahl was an exhibition in honor of Marty.

Tahl is awesome. Tahl is pretty amazing with a hardbat. But I know, I talked to him after one hardbat tournament SPiN convinced him to play in, and when the tournament was done he said to me he didn't really like playing hardbat too often because it messed up his real game; the game with sponge.

And in a real match, rather than an exhibition, with Tahl playing hardbat and Paul David playing sponge, there is no way Tahl would win. Even though he can play over the 2000 level with hardbat.

tropical · Apr 6, 2018

UpSideDownCarl said:
And the word I have from Mr Paul David is that that match between Paul and Tahl was an exhibition in honor of Marty.

Tahl is awesome. Tahl is pretty amazing with a hardbat. But I know, I talked to him after one hardbat tournament SPiN convinced him to play in, and when the tournament was done he said to me he didn't really like playing hardbat too often because it messed up his real game; the game with sponge.

And in a real match, rather than an exhibition, with Tahl playing hardbat and Paul David playing sponge, there is no way Tahl would win. Even though he can play over the 2000 level with hardbat.

Made a lot of sense to me.

berndtjgmann · Apr 6, 2018

UpSideDownCarl said:
And the word I have from Mr Paul David is that that match between Paul and Tahl was an exhibition in honor of Marty.

(bjgmann) Yeah it was. But according to the Table Tennis Nation it was an exhibition in honor of Marty with 200 bucks going to the winner of the exhibition. You'd think that Mr. Paul David, who had the higher rating would want to put his best foot (or loop) forward in that exhibition. 200 bucks after all is 200 bucks.

(UPSDC). Tahl is awesome. Tahl is pretty amazing with a hardbat. But I know, I talked to him after one hardbat tournament SPiN convinced him to play in, and when the tournament was done he said to me he didn't really like playing hardbat too often because it messed up his real game; the game with sponge.

(bjgmann). Ah-hoo-ha.

Actually, Tahl is awe-freaking-some hardhat to hardhat. Here, based on 24 hb/hb matches, is Tahl's hardhat rating, based on 24 hb/hb matches: (www.hardbat.com)

NY 2441 247 024 Leibovitz, Tahl (Marcus system: the 247 means a plus or minus 247 deviation based on the number of matches Tahl played)

(UPSDC). And in a real match, rather than an exhibition, with Tahl playing hardbat and Paul David playing sponge, there is no way Tahl would win. Even though he can play over the 2000 level with hardbat.

(bjgmann). Well, it might be pretty much pick 'em.

Tahl's hb rating, sans deviation, is just a slosh higher than Paul David's 2014 sponge rating. But, assuming that you're right, which is probably a plausible assumption, just what does that say about the role that equipment choice plays in today's game?

And, whether or not Tahl current likes hb aside, what chance do you think that Paul David would have in a hardbat/hardbat match, exhibition or no, against the nighty Leibovitz, considering he has yet to play even a single hardhat/hardbat encounter?

Hardbat, UPSDC, ain't beanbag. Neither obviously, in the hand of a Leibovitz, is sandbar.

sderyke2002 · Apr 6, 2018

I watched the match and found it less exciting not more exciting to watch. It was slow and monotonous, and I half expected the players to spin around like Reismann would do at times simply because the game is so slow you have time to do such nonsense. I can see where they think this will be a more welcoming environment for beginners, but I don't see fans rushing to watch this.

I think once the sponge bat players got used to the dead floater balls that result off of the sandpaper they would not make the near wiffs, or the misses long off the table, that describe so many of the lost points by Paul David. I also think that once he was used to it his strategy would be different, and the languid chop serves etc. (which admittedly did not work) would be replaced with much faster top spin serves (which don't work against inverted rubber) but would against the sandpaper.

UpSideDownCarl · Apr 6, 2018

berndtjgmann said:
(bjgmann). Well, it might be pretty much pick 'em. Tahl's hb rating, sans deviation, is just a slosh higher than Paul David's 2014 sponge rating. But, assuming that you're right, which is probably a plausible assumption, just what does that say about the role that equipment choice plays in today's game?

And, whether or not Tahl current likes hb aside, what chance do you think that Paul David would have in a hardbat/hardbat match, exhibition or no, against the nighty Leibovitz, considering he has yet to play even a single hardhat/hardbat encounter?

Hardbat, UPSDC, ain't beanbag. Neither obviously, in the hand of a Leibovitz, is sandbar.

Sandpaper. It is true, SPiN had guys use the TTNation Sandpaper.

Tahl vs PD Sandpaper vs Sandpaper or Hardbat vs Hardbat, I would guess Tahl would win those. Sponge vs Sponge, I have seen both of them win many times. [emoji4] But since Paul doesn't really mess around with hardbat or sandpaper, and I know his knees, hips and shoulder may not like the change in how you have to move to play them, and since Tahl is really good with either Sandpaper or Hardbat, I think Tahl would be the favorite to take either a hardbat match or a sandpaper match from Paul.

So, since we are so sad that bjgmann does not seem like he wants to take the bait in starting a hardbat forum and stop pestering the Modern Table Tennis community at large, will TTNation promote him from lowly sales rep to big wig regional distributor?

And if you didn’t already know, this is one of the rackets bjgmann has been going on and on about in his big sales pitch:

berndtjgmann · Apr 6, 2018

(UPSDC). So, since we are so sad that bjgmann does not seem like he wants to take the bait in starting a hardbat forum and stop pestering the Modern Table Tennis community at large, will TTNation promote him from lowly sales rep to big wig regional distributor?

And if you didn’t already know, this is one of the rackets bjgmann has been going on and on about in his big sales pitch:

(bjgmann). You're kidding, right? You were smiling when you wrote this, right? You don't really purport to represent the Modern Table Tennis community at large, whoever the hell they might be, do you? And do you really claim that I am a "lowly sales rep" for Table Tennis Nation who could be up for promotion to "big wig regional distributor" for conscientiously pestering this duckpond of a Modern Table Tennis community?

Borderine libelous, buddy boy; borderline libelous.

Sandpaper vs. Sponge

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