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    1. Top | #21
      OldschoolPenholder is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl View Post
      I think I read this in Lao Tzu’s Dao Te Ching.
      Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy
      LOLOLOL - you know me well Carl !!!

      Lao Tzu and this other philosopher, some guy named Bruce Lee

      "To learn to die is to be liberated from it."
      ~Lee (as played by Bruce Lee on Longstreet)

      Last edited by OldschoolPenholder; 3 Days Ago at 05:17 PM.
      "To learn to die is to be liberated from it."
      ~Lee (as played by Bruce Lee on Longstreet)
      --------------------------------------
      https://vimeo.com/user56649342
      https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClR...u057SJTKL4O9Og

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    3. Top | #22
      Andy44 is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by perham View Post
      I think it has to do with both. In general, it's not easy to relax my muscles if I'm not conscious about it. So it's not an automatic thing for me yet. Also, if I don't know where the ball is going to be, the sheer amount of thoughts I need to keep track of in that moment sometimes overwhelms my conscious efforts to stay relaxed. This sometimes has led to very funny situations, like losing two sets when I thought I'm playing my best, and winning back three when I gave up and didn't care.
      It's amazing how often that kind of thing happens. When you're learning how to close out matches you quickly realize that one of the danger points is the moment your opponent decides he doesn't have a chance anymore. He'll then either fall apart or, more typically, start playing better. Most big comebacks happen because of this and not because of choking.

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    5. Top | #23
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      you dont need particular training . just focus on being relaxed on every shot and when u dont keep reminding. Any habbit or stroke or drill will get to ur subconscious when u feel comfortable doing other things at the same time like, thinking irrelevant stuff when practicing FH loop, or talking simultaneously.

      finger pressure or grip change is easy u just need to let ur self go and always be relaxed and in an equilibrium state. Having relaxed muscles is no1 priority for any tt player that seriously wants to improve. I always think that im here to play and enjoy, not to win and these kinds of thoughts always help me relax, always think positive and it will become a habit. Sometimes think inbetween points that im just the best and i will put the ball on the table with quality no matter what. It may sound stupid or arrogant or whatever but I dont care since it helps me improve and enjoy my match or training
      I suck real bad so I train to suck less

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    7. Top | #24
      Baal is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by Lightzy View Post
      I disagree with the 'experience' thing. Sure it's a facet buthere are plenty enough people who've been playing tat a low level for years or more without serious improvement because they're not doing their best to be conscious.

      If you're tense then focus on making yourself relaxed all through the backswing and swing.
      Trust me, at the point you touch the ball, your muscles will tense anyway, so there's no real backside to consciously practicing relaxation
      Repetition is not sufficient. But it is necessary.

      First you have to learn everything. Then you have to forget it.

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    9. Top | #25
      UpSideDownCarl is online now
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      Quote Originally Posted by Baal View Post
      Repetition is not sufficient. But it is necessary.

      First you have to learn everything. Then you have to forget it.
      Hey OldSchool, it looks like Baal may have the same copy of Lao Tzu that you and Bruce Lee are using.

      Great post Baal. Few words but a lot of content.
      Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 3 Days Ago at 12:10 AM.
      Spin Everything.

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    11. Top | #26
      OldschoolPenholder is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl View Post
      Hey OldSchool, it looks like Baal may have the same copy of Lao Tzu that you and Bruce Lee are using.

      Great post Baal. Few words but a lot of content.
      LOLOLOL

      *salutes and bows deeply to Master Baal*

      -------------------------


      Neglected to add in previous post in the part about relaxation ... one of my brothers from the 1980's TT crew i hung out with always sang or hummed during the match ... he was one of the chillest of us.

      Many people listen to music, or white noise, or recorded affirmations, etc to relax

      So during matchplay, sing to yourself, or repeat an affirmation/mantra - "i am relaxed", "my grip is perfect", etc.

      One size doesn't always fit all. Mix and match any of the advice you received in this thread and see what works for you.

      Truly HTH!
      Last edited by OldschoolPenholder; 2 Days Ago at 01:05 PM.

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    13. Top | #27
      Garrison is offline
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      I just try to become good enough that my nervous state is enough to win

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    15. Top | #28
      berndtjgmann is online now
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      Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl View Post
      Hey OldSchool, it looks like Baal may have the same copy of Lao Tzu that you and Bruce Lee are using.

      Great post Baal. Few words but a lot of content.

      "Education is what you have left when you've forgotten everything you learned in college."

      Dieter Willi Eysser 1946-2012

      Aphorist and spiritual adviser to Utah's pride 1536 rated Rainer Eysser, Koenig of subconscious tt combo play as it's done in downtown Salt Lake.
      Last edited by berndtjgmann; 2 Days Ago at 03:43 PM.
      It's still chaos out there!

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    17. Top | #29
      Ioiettino is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by berndtjgmann View Post
      "Education is what you have left when you've forgotten everything you learned in college."

      Dieter Willi Eysser 1946-2012
      Ahah, we're drifting away but R. L. Stevenson's An Apology for Idlers is a very good read, in this vein (it is only a few pages long and can easily be found online). I'd advise it to anyone, if only for the writing style.

      Edit: here it is in full: http://essays.quotidiana.org/stevens...gy_for_idlers/ (the "it" when talking about the fine fellow near the start doesn't appear in my copy, but overall this looks sound).
      Not the most obvious at first how this translate into TT, but not a bad start either to find that mental space you're looking for. And just have a laugh.
      Last edited by Ioiettino; 2 Days Ago at 04:17 PM.

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    19. Top | #30
      Baal is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl View Post
      Hey OldSchool, it looks like Baal may have the same copy of Lao Tzu that you and Bruce Lee are using.

      Great post Baal. Few words but a lot of content.
      I am paraphrasing Bill Evans. Lightzy will know who I mean.

      And this Lao Tzu you are speaking of? What equipment does he use?
      Last edited by Baal; 2 Days Ago at 01:18 AM.

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    21. Top | #31
      tropical is offline
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      When I was around 1700, I beat a guy 250pts above me in 3 sets in a US Open event a while back.. I was like ... nothing to lose and the other guy after losing, checked my rating, and said he could have played differently if he knew my rating was that low. He was so tight, too conservative in his game

      Lesson: just relax and play the best, regardless how easy or tough your opponent is. Don't think about the outcome of the match.

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    23. Top | #32
      ajtatosmano2 is offline
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      I've always performed inconsistently. Sometimes I could flow, but most of the times I struggled. I've tried a wide range of training methods, from the 'just think you're ML' to 'do everything conscientiously". Despite how hard I tried to find the perfect method for me, it didn't seemed to work out. However, looking back I improved. I never felt it, but I did. It was just slow. And I think being conscientious had a big role in this. Also, note that improving is slow but not linear. It's far from being linear. Sometimes you struggle for months. Perfecting the technique happens with being aware about your movements. It's not something you can skip (well, kids often just follow their coaches instructions and learn to play instinctively, but I believe it's not the most efffective way). But just flowing is needed in matchplay.

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    25. Top | #33
      perham is online now
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      Thanks guys for all the replies. I just think I need to keep practicing until this becomes muscle memory. Last night in training I was either missing or returning slow balls on my backhand in a drill, and the coach noticed that my wrist is too tense. The moment I realized this, everything got fixed. I assume it takes time before these small fixes become part of habit. All I can say is so far I'm having fun in this journey, and I don't care much where it takes me.

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    27. Top | #34
      Lightzy is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by Baal View Post
      I am paraphrasing Bill Evans. Lightzy will know who I mean.
      I do )

      It's the same for mastering any activity. At first you have to put a lot of thought into the tiny annoying things (for piano for example, with what order of fingers to play a certain passage), and then it becomes so natural that you never even have to think about it, and even if it's something you never played before, still your fingers will find the most natural fluid way to play it without you having to be conscious of it.
      But that never happens if you don't spend a lot of time consciously, slowly, arranging your fingering on many passages beforehand. And again, with amateurs who never become pros, it is the same problem. Their technique is always slurred and stunted because of what I think is a lack of conscious, mindful effort.

      The sad thing is that things only becomes hugely fun after you've done the hard conscious, technical work, because after you can 'forget' that, your mind is now free to concentrate on the actual music and creativity. So most people who play piano, excuse me for saying, don't even know how fun playing piano can be.

      I figure it's the same with TT.
      You can see how, if you're at a stage where you're just trying to put the ball on the table with some quality in a match, you're not yet at a level where your mind can be freed to really think about ball placement for example, and the game has no real art to it yet. After that it becomes even more fun than you can imagine!


      Sorry for the longass post.

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    29. Top | #35
      Baal is offline
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      It is hard. You focus on relaxing your wrist and everything else goes off. It is very anti-Zen. But you still need to relax your wrist. There aren't many shortcuts to getting better.

      The one thing that can make things go slightly faster is to video yourself playing. Then you can see all the problems at once.

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    31. Top | #36
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      Quote Originally Posted by perham View Post
      Thanks guys for all the replies. I just think I need to keep practicing until this becomes muscle memory. Last night in training I was either missing or returning slow balls on my backhand in a drill, and the coach noticed that my wrist is too tense. The moment I realized this, everything got fixed. I assume it takes time before these small fixes become part of habit. All I can say is so far I'm having fun in this journey, and I don't care much where it takes me.

      relax relax relax deep breaths and relax some more!

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    33. Top | #37
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      Certain level of tensions in muscles must be maintained specially if your playing a close-to-the-table style for both attacking and defending. We call it the right muscle activation.

      as for conscious ->subconscious transition, reps, lots of reps, is the only way to do it - your brain’s neurological mechanisms of motion require it. But the $500k question is what actions under what situations you want to do reps so they can be taken subconsciously? This is where a good coach will help you get there much sooner.

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    35. Top | #38
      Baal is offline
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      One way to get a bit more automatic on a shot is to introduce more movement into it -- so you have to move a bit to get to the ball. But not too much. You focus on the element you are trying to improve, for example relaxing your wrist. But not from always the same place. For some reason adding a little movement helps engrain the new habit faster.

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    37. Top | #39
      UpSideDownCarl is online now
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      Quote Originally Posted by perham View Post
      I've recently noticed that in training, when I know where the ball is coming to....
      I do really keep coming back to this sentence. I agree with what Baal is saying about moving. But there definitely needs to be a certain amount of training where you do not know where the next ball is supposed to go.

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    39. Top | #40
      bircham boi is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by Baal View Post
      One way to get a bit more automatic on a shot is to introduce more movement into it -- so you have to move a bit to get to the ball. But not too much. You focus on the element you are trying to improve, for example relaxing your wrist. But not from always the same place. For some reason adding a little movement helps engrain the new habit faster.
      This is interesting. Are there any studies on this?

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