Transferring conscious to subconscious

This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Aug 2016
1,841
2,808
13,658
I think I read this in Lao Tzu’s Dao Te Ching. [emoji2]
Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

LOLOLOL - you know me well Carl !!!

Lao Tzu and this other philosopher, some guy named Bruce Lee :)

"To learn to die is to be liberated from it."
~Lee (as played by Bruce Lee on Longstreet)

 
Last edited:
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Aug 2017
184
231
962
I think it has to do with both. In general, it's not easy to relax my muscles if I'm not conscious about it. So it's not an automatic thing for me yet. Also, if I don't know where the ball is going to be, the sheer amount of thoughts I need to keep track of in that moment sometimes overwhelms my conscious efforts to stay relaxed. This sometimes has led to very funny situations, like losing two sets when I thought I'm playing my best, and winning back three when I gave up and didn't care.

It's amazing how often that kind of thing happens. When you're learning how to close out matches you quickly realize that one of the danger points is the moment your opponent decides he doesn't have a chance anymore. He'll then either fall apart or, more typically, start playing better. Most big comebacks happen because of this and not because of choking.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Feb 2012
2,010
1,441
4,714
Read 1 reviews
you dont need particular training . just focus on being relaxed on every shot and when u dont keep reminding. Any habbit or stroke or drill will get to ur subconscious when u feel comfortable doing other things at the same time like, thinking irrelevant stuff when practicing FH loop, or talking simultaneously.

finger pressure or grip change is easy u just need to let ur self go and always be relaxed and in an equilibrium state. Having relaxed muscles is no1 priority for any tt player that seriously wants to improve. I always think that im here to play and enjoy, not to win and these kinds of thoughts always help me relax, always think positive and it will become a habit. Sometimes think inbetween points that im just the best and i will put the ball on the table with quality no matter what. It may sound stupid or arrogant or whatever but I dont care since it helps me improve and enjoy my match or training
 
says ok, I will go back and make sure you have access. Be...
says ok, I will go back and make sure you have access. Be...
Well-Known Member
Nov 2010
3,568
5,934
10,356
Read 8 reviews
I disagree with the 'experience' thing. Sure it's a facet buthere are plenty enough people who've been playing tat a low level for years or more without serious improvement because they're not doing their best to be conscious.

If you're tense then focus on making yourself relaxed all through the backswing and swing.
Trust me, at the point you touch the ball, your muscles will tense anyway, so there's no real backside to consciously practicing relaxation

Repetition is not sufficient. But it is necessary.

First you have to learn everything. Then you have to forget it.
 
says Spin and more spin.
says Spin and more spin.
Well-Known Member
Super Moderator
Dec 2010
16,163
17,730
54,862
Read 11 reviews
Repetition is not sufficient. But it is necessary.

First you have to learn everything. Then you have to forget it.

Hey OldSchool, it looks like Baal may have the same copy of Lao Tzu that you and Bruce Lee are using. :)

Great post Baal. Few words but a lot of content. :)
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: OldschoolPenholder
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Aug 2016
1,841
2,808
13,658
Hey OldSchool, it looks like Baal may have the same copy of Lao Tzu that you and Bruce Lee are using. :)

Great post Baal. Few words but a lot of content. :)

LOLOLOL

*salutes and bows deeply to Master Baal*

-------------------------


Neglected to add in previous post in the part about relaxation ... one of my brothers from the 1980's TT crew i hung out with always sang or hummed during the match ... he was one of the chillest of us.

Many people listen to music, or white noise, or recorded affirmations, etc to relax

So during matchplay, sing to yourself, or repeat an affirmation/mantra - "i am relaxed", "my grip is perfect", etc.

One size doesn't always fit all. Mix and match any of the advice you received in this thread and see what works for you.

Truly HTH!
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: TTFrenzy and Andy44
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
This user has been banned.
Dec 2017
135
93
329
Hey OldSchool, it looks like Baal may have the same copy of Lao Tzu that you and Bruce Lee are using. :)

Great post Baal. Few words but a lot of content. :)


"Education is what you have left when you've forgotten everything you learned in college."

Dieter Willi Eysser 1946-2012

Aphorist and spiritual adviser to Utah's pride 1536 rated Rainer Eysser, Koenig of subconscious tt combo play as it's done in downtown Salt Lake.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: OldschoolPenholder
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Dec 2016
496
389
1,723
"Education is what you have left when you've forgotten everything you learned in college."

Dieter Willi Eysser 1946-2012

Ahah, we're drifting away but R. L. Stevenson's An Apology for Idlers is a very good read, in this vein (it is only a few pages long and can easily be found online). I'd advise it to anyone, if only for the writing style.

Edit: here it is in full: http://essays.quotidiana.org/stevenson/apology_for_idlers/ (the "it" when talking about the fine fellow near the start doesn't appear in my copy, but overall this looks sound).
Not the most obvious at first how this translate into TT, but not a bad start either to find that mental space you're looking for. And just have a laugh.
 
Last edited:
says ok, I will go back and make sure you have access. Be...
says ok, I will go back and make sure you have access. Be...
Well-Known Member
Nov 2010
3,568
5,934
10,356
Read 8 reviews
Hey OldSchool, it looks like Baal may have the same copy of Lao Tzu that you and Bruce Lee are using. :)

Great post Baal. Few words but a lot of content. :)

I am paraphrasing Bill Evans. Lightzy will know who I mean.

And this Lao Tzu you are speaking of? What equipment does he use?
 
Last edited:
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Active Member
Oct 2012
891
510
1,733
Read 1 reviews
When I was around 1700, I beat a guy 250pts above me in 3 sets in a US Open event a while back.. I was like ... nothing to lose and the other guy after losing, checked my rating, and said he could have played differently if he knew my rating was that low. He was so tight, too conservative in his game

Lesson: just relax and play the best, regardless how easy or tough your opponent is. Don't think about the outcome of the match.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Mar 2015
1,308
1,001
3,858
Read 3 reviews
I've always performed inconsistently. Sometimes I could flow, but most of the times I struggled. I've tried a wide range of training methods, from the 'just think you're ML' to 'do everything conscientiously". Despite how hard I tried to find the perfect method for me, it didn't seemed to work out. However, looking back I improved. I never felt it, but I did. It was just slow. And I think being conscientious had a big role in this. Also, note that improving is slow but not linear. It's far from being linear. Sometimes you struggle for months. Perfecting the technique happens with being aware about your movements. It's not something you can skip (well, kids often just follow their coaches instructions and learn to play instinctively, but I believe it's not the most efffective way). But just flowing is needed in matchplay.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Aug 2017
383
269
898
Thanks guys for all the replies. I just think I need to keep practicing until this becomes muscle memory. Last night in training I was either missing or returning slow balls on my backhand in a drill, and the coach noticed that my wrist is too tense. The moment I realized this, everything got fixed. I assume it takes time before these small fixes become part of habit. All I can say is so far I'm having fun in this journey, and I don't care much where it takes me.
 
says I would recommend all wood. Samsonov Alpha sgs is the...
says I would recommend all wood. Samsonov Alpha sgs is the...
Active Member
Nov 2017
876
401
1,399
Read 8 reviews
I am paraphrasing Bill Evans. Lightzy will know who I mean.

I do :))

It's the same for mastering any activity. At first you have to put a lot of thought into the tiny annoying things (for piano for example, with what order of fingers to play a certain passage), and then it becomes so natural that you never even have to think about it, and even if it's something you never played before, still your fingers will find the most natural fluid way to play it without you having to be conscious of it.
But that never happens if you don't spend a lot of time consciously, slowly, arranging your fingering on many passages beforehand. And again, with amateurs who never become pros, it is the same problem. Their technique is always slurred and stunted because of what I think is a lack of conscious, mindful effort.

The sad thing is that things only becomes hugely fun after you've done the hard conscious, technical work, because after you can 'forget' that, your mind is now free to concentrate on the actual music and creativity. So most people who play piano, excuse me for saying, don't even know how fun playing piano can be.

I figure it's the same with TT.
You can see how, if you're at a stage where you're just trying to put the ball on the table with some quality in a match, you're not yet at a level where your mind can be freed to really think about ball placement for example, and the game has no real art to it yet. After that it becomes even more fun than you can imagine! :)


Sorry for the longass post.
 
says ok, I will go back and make sure you have access. Be...
says ok, I will go back and make sure you have access. Be...
Well-Known Member
Nov 2010
3,568
5,934
10,356
Read 8 reviews
It is hard. You focus on relaxing your wrist and everything else goes off. It is very anti-Zen. But you still need to relax your wrist. There aren't many shortcuts to getting better.

The one thing that can make things go slightly faster is to video yourself playing. Then you can see all the problems at once.
 
  • Like
Reactions: perham
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Feb 2012
2,010
1,441
4,714
Read 1 reviews
Thanks guys for all the replies. I just think I need to keep practicing until this becomes muscle memory. Last night in training I was either missing or returning slow balls on my backhand in a drill, and the coach noticed that my wrist is too tense. The moment I realized this, everything got fixed. I assume it takes time before these small fixes become part of habit. All I can say is so far I'm having fun in this journey, and I don't care much where it takes me.


relax relax relax deep breaths and relax some more!
 
  • Like
Reactions: perham
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Jan 2018
236
193
502
Certain level of tensions in muscles must be maintained specially if your playing a close-to-the-table style for both attacking and defending. We call it the right muscle activation.

as for conscious ->subconscious transition, reps, lots of reps, is the only way to do it - your brain’s neurological mechanisms of motion require it. But the $500k question is what actions under what situations you want to do reps so they can be taken subconsciously? This is where a good coach will help you get there much sooner.
 
says ok, I will go back and make sure you have access. Be...
says ok, I will go back and make sure you have access. Be...
Well-Known Member
Nov 2010
3,568
5,934
10,356
Read 8 reviews
One way to get a bit more automatic on a shot is to introduce more movement into it -- so you have to move a bit to get to the ball. But not too much. You focus on the element you are trying to improve, for example relaxing your wrist. But not from always the same place. For some reason adding a little movement helps engrain the new habit faster.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Andy44 and perham
says Spin and more spin.
says Spin and more spin.
Well-Known Member
Super Moderator
Dec 2010
16,163
17,730
54,862
Read 11 reviews
I've recently noticed that in training, when I know where the ball is coming to....

I do really keep coming back to this sentence. I agree with what Baal is saying about moving. But there definitely needs to be a certain amount of training where you do not know where the next ball is supposed to go.
 
  • Like
Reactions: perham
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Feb 2012
158
158
408
One way to get a bit more automatic on a shot is to introduce more movement into it -- so you have to move a bit to get to the ball. But not too much. You focus on the element you are trying to improve, for example relaxing your wrist. But not from always the same place. For some reason adding a little movement helps engrain the new habit faster.
This is interesting. Are there any studies on this?
 
Top