Does Equipment Matter: Pro vs. Pro

berndtjgmann · Apr 20, 2018

Hypotheticals are always fun, and these should be good for a few chuckles:

Fan vs. Harimoto: Fan with BTY Kenny Style and Star Player 1.5 mm., Harimoto with current setup

Ma vs. Timo: Ma with Valor American Chopper, Premier rubber, Timo with whatever he's using today (no booster of course)

Dima vs. Joo: Dima with current blade and Hurricane 8 + Stolitchnaya booster, Joo drawing down with Dr. Neubauer Bison fh and Dr. Neubauer Dominatrix backhand on one of them there Stiga nostalgia blades

UpSideDownCarl · Apr 20, 2018

berndtjgmann said:
Hypotheticals are always fun, and these should be good for a few chuckles:

Fan vs. Harimoto: Fan with BTY Kenny Style and Star Player 1.5 mm., Harimoto with current setup

Ma vs. Timo: Ma with Valor American Chopper, Premier rubber, Timo with whatever he's using today (no booster of course)

Dima vs. Joo: Dima with current blade and Hurricane 8 + Stolitchnaya booster, Joo drawing down with Dr. Neubauer Bison fh and Dr. Neubauer Dominatrix backhand on one of them there Stiga nostalgia blades

Funny how bjgmann wants to decide what other people play with and to give players equipment that totally doesn't match how they play at all. I am wondering, is there any reason for this thread to stay up. Is there any redeeming quality in bjgmann's trolling?

TTHopeful · Apr 20, 2018

Why dont you just say both pros use sriver on both sides then see what happens?

pgpg · Apr 20, 2018

UpSideDownCarl said:
Funny how bjgmann wants to decide what other people play with and to give players equipment that totally doesn't match how they play at all. I am wondering, is there any reason for this thread to stay up. Is there any redeeming quality in bjgmann's trolling?

I don't think it's trolling, more like a lighthearted attempt at TT humor, inspired by recent threads.

P.S. Not a huge fan of 'berndt' writings, but this one is fine, IMHO.

Ranger-man · Apr 20, 2018

pgpg said:
I don't think it's trolling, more like a lighthearted attempt at TT humor, inspired by recent threads.

P.S. Not a huge fan of 'berndt' writings, but this one is fine, IMHO.

I agree, hypothetical debates may not be everyone's cup of tea but they can be fun, provided we don't take them too seriously. Always good to keep it lighthearted.

JediJesseS · Apr 20, 2018

UpSideDownCarl said:
Is there any redeeming quality in bjgmann's trolling?

Partially disguised by some clever language, nearly every post I've ever seen across multiple forums amounts to one thing--how awful today's table tennis is. How lacking it is compared to past eras. How dependent players are on sponge and equipment. Different variations on the same central theme.

Is this useful? Beyond adding a recognizable personality to the forum, for me there isn't much to redeem it. A historical perspective can be very interesting, but discussions are routinely thrown completely off course by the trolling aspects and his enormous axe to grind. There is an ever present frustration approaching hatred for the modern game that overshadows his posts and judgement.

Maybe someday I'll be posting about missing the days when we only needed to be armed with a boosted sheet of H3Neo and a few plys of carbon, but I hope I resist. The sport will always be changing and evolving. There's an enormous futility in lamenting this instead of accepting it.

UpSideDownCarl · Apr 20, 2018

JediJesseS said:
Partially disguised by some clever language, nearly every post I've ever seen across multiple forums amounts to one thing--how awful today's table tennis is. How lacking it is compared to past eras. How dependent players are on sponge and equipment. Different variations on the same central theme.

Is this useful? Beyond adding a recognizable personality to the forum, for me there isn't much to redeem it. A historical perspective can be very interesting, but discussions are routinely thrown completely off course by the trolling aspects and his enormous axe to grind. There is an ever present frustration approaching hatred for the modern game that overshadows his posts and judgement.

Maybe someday I'll be posting about missing the days when we only needed to be armed with a boosted sheet of H3Neo and a few plys of carbon, but I hope I resist. The sport will always be changing and evolving. There's an enormous futility in lamenting this instead of accepting it.

Excellent post. Thank you.

Anyone else feel the same? Anyone out there who can explain to me the value bjgmann adds to the forum.

I have been pondering whether there is a usefulness to having someone who presents in the manner described on the forum. And I keep thinking that bjgmann may be better off if he was on a nostalgia for the days of yore ping pong forum rather than a modern table tennis site.

Ranger-man · Apr 20, 2018

JediJesseS said:
Partially disguised by some clever language, nearly every post I've ever seen across multiple forums amounts to one thing--how awful today's table tennis is. How lacking it is compared to past eras. How dependent players are on sponge and equipment. Different variations on the same central theme.

Is this useful? Beyond adding a recognizable personality to the forum, for me there isn't much to redeem it. A historical perspective can be very interesting, but discussions are routinely thrown completely off course by the trolling aspects and his enormous axe to grind. There is an ever present frustration approaching hatred for the modern game that overshadows his posts and judgement.

Maybe someday I'll be posting about missing the days when we only needed to be armed with a boosted sheet of H3Neo and a few plys of carbon, but I hope I resist. The sport will always be changing and evolving. There's an enormous futility in lamenting this instead of accepting it.

Well, I guess I am gullible because I did not see this side to it. But I agree, if that is the purpose of these posts then I don't think they add any value. I started playing when we had the 38mm ball and I used to be a defender (played with a BTY Matsushita blade chopping on both wings). And then the game changed and I changed with it and I have not even thought about the old days as anything more than a part of the journey. I don't feel that the newer equipment has destroyed the game or ruined it. So if that is the purpose of this trolling, I am not for it. In fact I even have 44mm balls. Just wanted to try them out lol.

If I did comment on his threads of this nature, it was not to show support for the mindset that today's TT is awful, because I do not think it is. JediJesseS, I know you are not singling out any of us or me but I just wish to clarify that my posts were not made to present that view or support it.

berndtjgmann · Apr 20, 2018

UpSideDownCarrl and JediJesseS:

What is so intrinsically wonderful or for that matter defensible about a sport whose foremost practitioners routinely flout, and have flouted the rules which govern the sport for years through such practices as illegal serving and boosting? And what is so intrinsically.fair and balanced about a sport that has not had a primarily defensively oriented male player win a World Singles Championship since Richard Bergmann in 1950 and a primarily female defensive player Angelica Rozeanu win a World Singles Championship in 1955?

Perhaps, gentlemen, the question that should be asked is yes table tennis is changing and evolving, but to what is table tennis changing and evolving? To a sport which tacitly permits sharp practices such as services ranging from the questionable to the downright illegal, a sport which can't police as yet the illegal use of boosting oils, the application of which can be seen demonstrated on YouTube, a sport incomprehensible to folk who don't play it (in the flapper era ping pong was played in ballrooms and nightclubs) and surprisingly forbidding to anyone who would like to learn how to play it, and a sport in which one approach to play overwhelms other approaches to play particularly at the international level though blocking defense with long pipped and antispin rubbers can be effectively employed at levels from club to low elite (whew?)?

Perhaps, JediJesseS, someday you'll be posting about missing the good old days of carbon blades and H3Neo, but once that day comes, rage, rage against the slow protracted painful dying of the light that began back in the good old days of 2018. There will be nothing that you can do about the state of mid-20th century tt, but you'll feel better about letting it all hang out on the 2050 Table Tennis Daily forum.

They'll call you a troll, but just shrug, call it fate, and keep on drinking.

To UpSideDownCarl: Now that this thread has become noticeably less lighthearted, would you care to affirm or deny my assertions with respect to illegal serves, use of boosters, and imbalance in today's international table tennis with respect to players whose game is defensively oriented? Or would you rather simply stick to calling me a troll?

UpSideDownCarl · Apr 20, 2018

It is okay Ranger-man. As the most active moderator of the forum, part of the reason I asked the question I did is exactly what JediJesseS explained. It is actually very clear if you go through the posts he has made here since he joined. And it is even more clear if you read through posts from other forums where he has already been banned for far worse behavior than he has exhibited on TTDaily.

In comparison to some of what bjgmann did on MyTT, he has been quite tame on TTDaily. But, after over 100 posts, I am stuck with the sense that he has only ever made fun of fellow forum members while complaining about sponge rubber, and things like speed glue or boosters.

Was the post that started this thread a joke? Yes. And it was not nearly the worst of what bjgmann has posted. But it was a joke poking fun at people who boost and use max sponge smooth rubber. "Hurricane 8 with Stolitchnaya booster". Why does it make bjgmann happy to ridicule people who like the modern game? I am not sure why it gives him pleasure to post the stuff he does and try and get under people's skin.

But it does make me wonder about a few things.

berndtjgmann · Apr 20, 2018

Liking the modern game is not the point. In fact, I might like the modern game a bit more if an heir apparent to Joo Se Hyuk or Ding Song were to win a World Singles Championship with a max smooth inverted sponge rubber on fh and bh boosted with whatever that worthy wants to boost it with. I don't see that happening any time soon.

There are many smart, quirky, interesting people who post to this and the MYTT forums. But if you are a smart, quirky, interesting person who serves questionably (not very nice) or downright illegally or boosts your rubber with a boosting oil you're playing fast and loose with the rules of tt.

And that does make me wonder about a few things about this our ingenious, chemically dependent, it ain''t cheating if an ump don't call it sport. As fellow contributor to this and the MYTT forum igorponger might say: sorry.

UpSideDownCarl · Apr 20, 2018

So, bjgmann, given the fact that you have posted again and again about the things you don’t like that go on in the sport today and most people seem unconcerned about your concerns, do you feel there is a reason for you to be posting stuff like this on the forum? Now that you know that these things do not bother the people on the forum?

Is there a way you can be a productive member of the forum and not seem to fit the description you just did such a good job of demonstrating?

Or do you wish to no longer be a member of the forum?

Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

NextLevel · Apr 20, 2018

berndtjgmann said:
Liking the modern game is not the point. In fact, I might like the modern game a bit more if an heir apparent to Joo Se Hyuk or Ding Song were to win a World Singles Championship with a max smooth inverted sponge rubber on fh and bh boosted with whatever that worthy wants to boost it with. I don't see that happening any time soon.

There are many smart, quirky, interesting people who post to this and the MYTT forums. But if you are a smart, quirky, interesting person who serves questionably (not very nice) or downright illegally or boosts your rubber with a boosting oil you're playing fast and loose with the rules of tt.

And that does make me wonder about a few things about this our ingenious, chemically dependent, it ain''t cheating if an ump don't call it sport. As fellow contributor to this and the MYTT forum igorponger might say: sorry.

That you have to quote igorponger as an authority on something shows the kind of intellectual crowd your opinions party with.

In tennis, there is absolutely no heir apparent to John McEnroe today. No one serves and volleys consistently, just about everyone is a baseliner. In tennis, they are talking about how athletic and captivating the sport is. Chopping is a minor stroke, stylistic diversity is no longer in Tennis per se.

Then we have people who come to celebrate videos that look like slow motion replays compared to the rallies led today and lionize those as the epitome of TT. Then insult all those who don't agree with them by posting on forums where people who don't agree with them post, rather than finding and developing their forums for those who think like them.

NextLevel · Apr 20, 2018

UpSideDownCarl said:
So, bjgmann, given the fact that you have posted again and again about the things you don’t like that go on in the sport today and most people seem unconcerned about your concerns, do you feel there is a reason for you to be posting stuff like this on the forum? Now that you know that these things do not bother the people on the forum?

Is there a way you can be a productive member of the forum and not seem to fit the description you just did such a good job of demonstrating?

Or do you wish to no longer be a member of the forum?

Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

Mytt has let him back as the owner has forgiven Bmann for insulting him. So I suspect Bmann is now ready to push the envelope here since he now has another forum to play around on should he get banned here.

Xylit · Apr 20, 2018

No matter what rubbish you give Timo Boll to play with, he will completely destroy anyone. ANYONE. Timo GOAT!

As truth has been spoken and everyone else must be a liar, this topic can come to an end now. Thank you.

UpSideDownCarl · Apr 20, 2018

But I really do mean it bjgmann: can you, in your own words, explain to me 3 good reasons why you are a valuable member of the forum? Or how you can change and become a valuable member of the forum?

I am laying this in your hands. Will you choose to turn it into a mess and an argument. Or are there good reasons for you to participate in the forum?

Is there anyone else on the forum who would like to help me see some value in what he has offered thus far?

Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

Ioiettino · Apr 20, 2018

NextLevel said:
That you have to quote igorponger as an authority on something shows the kind of intellectual crowd your opinions party with.

In tennis, there is absolutely no heir apparent to John McEnroe today. No one serves and volleys consistently, just about everyone is a baseliner. In tennis, they are talking about how athletic and captivating the sport is. Chopping is a minor stroke, stylistic diversity is no longer in Tennis per se.

Then we have people who come to celebrate videos that look like slow motion replays compared to the rallies led today and lionize those as the epitome of TT. Then insult all those who don't agree with them by posting on forums where people who don't agree with them post, rather than finding and developing their forums for those who think like them.

I was thinking about making a comparison with tennis as well... Wouldn't have turned it quite so nicely. Football (soccer) is an interesting case, too. You'll find an awful lot of people speaking about the good old days but my word, even if I was more interested in that sport, I wouldn't go back to 1980's stuff (yay for defence, indeed!) just because there was less money in the game / less transfers / less diving (arguable) / whatever.

[I had commented in more general terms here but decided to remove it - not for me to comment on who should contribute and how; have a nice day all]

Joepole · Apr 20, 2018

I think the post is silly. It's a ridiculous hypotheses. Why would you make someone play with what they dont play with? Would it be interesting to see whether Usain Bolt is better than another sprinter in a sack race. Lets celebrate what people can do. However I can ignore it so it doesn't really bother me if its his thread. Whats not cool is to subvert someone elses thread.

Lightzy · Apr 20, 2018

Well I for one enjoyed the joke very much. I don't think a mod should ban a member because of not enjoying the joke.

BTW who do you think would win?

1) Dima Vs Ma Long, Dima uses a vaccum cleaner inverted to blow, Ma Long uses an electric toothbrush

2) Koki Niwa Vs. Harimoto, Koki Niwa uses a 1968 Fender Stratocaster, Harimoto uses a 9600 baud modem

3) Bernardette Szocs VS Liu Shiwen, Bernardette uses a pillow case full of live snakes, Liu Shiwen uses the flayed skin of her mortal enemy

berndtjgmann · Apr 20, 2018

UpSideDownCarl said:
But I really do mean it bjgmann: can you, in your own words, explain to me 3 good reasons why you are a valuable member of the forum?

Sure.

Good reason No. 1: I would think that a valuable member to a forum such as this does a sport such as table tennis a service, and certainly does neither the sport nor its players any harm, by pointing out some of the less savory practices of some of its practitioners, such as serving illegally and boosting with boosting oils. Why should either of these practiced be condoned, even though widely done and thus de facto permitted?

Good reason No. 2: The history of table tennis is an integral part of table tennis. The sport did not begin with sponge rubber, speed glue and boosters. This needs to be pointed out. Many posters to forums such as this would probably never have heard of pioneers of table tennis such as E. C. Goode, Arnold Parker or Percival Bromfield, let alone Barna, Bergmann and co., were it not for people interested in table tennis history such as myself, Scott Gordon, Larry Hodges and Jay Turberville.

Good reason No. 3: A table tennis forum need not be a mutual admiration society. Contrary views, even those less than infallible, if not obscene, obviously defamatory, or blatantly against the rules of a forum such as this should be permitted. Views such as my own need not be welcomed with smiles and open arms. I do believe they deserve to be seen. If you disagree, press the ignore button. Censorship is almost always not a good idea.

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