Does Equipment Matter: Pro vs. Pro

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Wa???!!! What are you trying to say, NextLevel? I presume that competitive players of yore, as competitive players of today, did not necessarily stick with the first racket available to them. There weren't of course the bewildering variety of rackets and rubbers to choose from, and almost all players from club or league level to international used preassembled rackets with rubber in horizontal for the most part or occasionally vertical pip configuration and pip size ranging from small and closely spaced (preferred by hitters) to somewhat larger (all-rounders) to still a little bit larger (all-rounders, topspinners and defenders). The MacCrossen brothers and Bernard Hock sold, if a player wished, a blade and a choice of rubber with pip configuration, spacing and size as mentioned above which a player could affix him- or herself, as players do today.

There was no established theory that I am aware of from the early 1930s to the beginning of the sponge era in the mid-1950s as to how table tennis should be played. Most of the instruction books that I have either at one time owned or read (Schaad, Montagu, Coleman Clark, Leach, Barna, Jack Carrington, Peggy McLean, Emily Fuller, others) discouraged the use of the penhold grip as it was felt that a player could neither drive nor chop effectively on the backhand side with such a grip.

Okay, NextLevel: "The Dick Miles story story speaks for itself". What does it say to you?

In the late 1940s, Dick Miles and Marty Reisman were world class players. At the age of 34, Miles, presumably playing with his trusty Hock No. 74, reached the semifinals in the singles event of the 1959 World Championships, losing to the eventual world Champion Rong Guo-Tuan. No one playing with a hard rubber racket has since gone farther in a World Championship.

I am trying to say that you probably know next to nothing about what players at the highest level did or did not do with their equipment. And that most players do not "doctor" their equipment even today if they didn't doctor it in yester years. The fact that Dick Miles wanted his equipment customized a certain way means that people customized what they used to fit their personal idiosyncrasies.

Even the pip configurations- today we see players using equipment for styles they were not originally designed for. I am sure some of that happened as well. Did people use the exact same rubbers on forehand and backhand?

The bewildering amount of equipment today is in part a result of money. Were there a bewildering amount of cars back in the 1940s? Would you then use that as an argument to say that car buying, driving and cars were better in the 1940s?

My point here is that Dick Miles was clearly doctoring his bats to suit him. But why not use the word doctoring since that is the point?
 
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To be honest the single person who has done the most to make me dislike hardbat ( and he has thankfully been largely ineffective since I still watch it like any other good TT when it is played well between two modern players) is berndtmann.

Yeah. It is interesting. That is at least in part why I decided it was time for this line of inquiry. I personally feel like bjgmann is pretty smart. He has been around the sport for longer than most. So it would be nice to have him change his mode of expression and be a positive source of history, info and nostalgia. But as things are, the way he presents is really....I mean....it makes me cringe and want to argue with the guy.....Or ignore him. And it is really annoying. It doesn't have to be that way.

I mean, it is amazing to hear people express that they stopped reading and posting on a forum because of how toxic bjgmann's commentary can be.

I teach yoga. That is the simple way of saying what I do for a living. I remember, about 20 years ago saying to a student, "I get that I am the arrogant SOB yoga teacher who gets away with having a bad attitude and being a total jerk because of how much I know." The student agreed with me. And, yeah, perhaps there was something to the fact that I could walk up to someone in the room because I saw there was something going on with their back even though they didn't tell me. And then make it so, their back was better. People saw that and got that I knew what I was doing in a way that other "teachers" just don't.

But my wife got me to realize that it didn't have to be that way. That I could still be an okay, decent person, perhaps even likable or with a certain degree of charm and it wouldn't stop me from being the teacher who knew how to help people too.

At this point, it is much more important to me in my professional life that people enjoy being around me while I am teaching rather than them realizing, "Okay, even though he is kind of a jerk, I am still safer in his class and will also get a better class because he knows what he is doing."

It gives me much more of an opportunity to help people and to get my perspective across if I do it in a way that is not arrogant and insulting. And it feels better. It feels good when people genuinely just like you and don't need a reason.

bjgmann, I wish you could show us some of the great stuff you know without showing how much disdain you have for the people on the forum. I really do. So I am going to say thanks in advance for trying. I am confident you can be someone who people look forward to reading instead of dreading hearing from.
 
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Root cause:

Table tennis, or more precisely Ping Pong, ceased to be a Jewish sport(lost its purity) in the '50s at the dawn of Occupied Japan and since the '60s after the rise of Communist China.

Nonetheless, I don't see his personal crusade any different from the very vocal gripes of many other members about Adham Sharara over the no-hidden serve, glue ban, the 40+ etc.

I mean, check out the ONLY comment I got for the video on Nittaku factory. How is that any different?
 
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Well, there you go. Zeio helpfully illustrates the difference between Berndt's mildly annoying vitriol and real trolling.
 
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But the thing is, if someone posted a few comments like that on here, they would get banned pretty fast. And there is no reason bjgmann’s version of trolling is necessary or even useful to him. The idea that he has made people like hardbat less by how he presents just demonstrates that he could do things better.

But if his actual goal is to lure unsuspecting members to take the bate so he can blind side them with his attacks, which is one of bjgmann’s standard MOs, then there will probably come a time when he is no longer a member.

I’d rather him learn how to communicate better and not antagonize people so frequently. Heck, I’d be happy if he picked up and read a book like “How to Win Friends and Influence People”!!! Anything would help. [emoji2]


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I am trying to say that you probably know next to nothing about what players at the highest level did or did not do with their equipment.

I have written, and the articles I have read from both Table Tennis Topics, the publication of the United States Table Tennis Association (USTTA) and the magazine of the English table tennis association do not mention anything about doctoring table tennis equipment. BTW, these articles pertain to publications from the mid-1930s to the mid-1950s.

And that most players do not "doctor" their equipment even today

Probably true, but substantial anecdotal and written evidence indicates that almost all professional players and many amateur players do indeed "doctor" their equipment by using boosting oils.


if they didn't doctor it in yester years. The fact that Dick Miles wanted his equipment customized a certain way means that people customized what they used to fit their personal idiosyncrasies.

Sure, but not illegally. The rule at the time of the hardbat era, Rule 4, permitted any kind of material for a table tennis racket or a table tennis racket's covering, thus virtually nothing was illegal, including Satoh's racket, unless white or
mirrorlike. Doctoring a racket's rubber with a boosting oil is illegal according to today's rule unless that rubber is factory boosted.

Even the pip configurations- today we see players using equipment for styles they were not originally designed for. I am sure some of that happened as well. Did people use the exact same rubbers on forehand and backhand?

Most probably pretty much did. The British Pathe video snippets of hardbat play do not seem to indicate otherwise. Richard Bergmann, however, on his Bergmann Popular Slazenger racket, used a vertical pip configuration for his fh side and a horizontal configuration for his bh side, according to a photograph in his book Twenty-One and to a Bergmann Popular racket I once owned.

The bewildering amount of equipment today is in part a result of money.

Agreed.

Were there a bewildering amount of cars back in the 1940s?

I would think so. How is that relevant to this discussion?

Would you then use that as an argument to say that car buying, driving and cars were better in the 1940s?

No I would not.

My point here is that Dick Miles was clearly doctoring his bats to suit him.

Dick Miles had Bernard Hock doctor his bats to suit him. According to Rule 4, nothing illegal about that. (That was a silly ass rule, which gave rise to all manner of subsequent silly ass rules). Modern players use boosting oils to doctor their rubbers. Still impractical to detect, but still illegal.

But why not use the word doctoring since that is the point?

Exactly, NextLevel. That is indeed the point.
 
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It sounds like I just heard bjgmann say that since nothing in the 40s and 50s was against the rules, that back in that era, if someone used H3 or T05 and boosted it, it would have been fine. [emoji2]


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A journalist with 26 years experience ought to be more careful as a reader and if computer literate as I presume you are should take advantage of your spellchecker.

Firstly: the reference to Formula I racing was made neither by me nor by player and Professor Scott Gordon. It was made by a poster going by the Internet alias Dadsky. This was neither my statement nor Professor Gordon's

I am sure that "untila" (sic) i.e. until a and "wod" (su) i.e. "wood" are typographical errors. But "roll" when "role" is the correct word!!?? As an editor with 26 years experience you should know better. And you should know better than to attribute a statement to persons who never made such a statement. That, pardon me, is neither careful nor responsible journalism.
 
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bjgmann, you may forget but, many of the people on this forum speak English as a 2nd, 3rd or 5th language. I think you are smart enough to read between the lines and realize that the forum member you are referring to may have missed a few details. And his spell checker might be going totally crazy since none of what he wrote is an actual word in the language his spell checker speaks.

The complication of you posting something Greg Letts posted that was a dialogue of other people’s posts could confuse the best of us is also worth noting.

But what was the purpose of bringing something like that back into the conversation and presenting in such a mean petty way? Did it serve a purpose for you? Or do you simply revert back to trying to put someone down when you don’t know what else to say?


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Yes you did. And if back in that era the technology were available and a 38-year old Barna decided to draw down against the 19-year-old Reisman at the British Open, that would have been copa-friggin'-cetic.

Reisman, off course, a mensch among mensches, would have stuck with his Hock No. 74 and still won the 1949 British Open. But even with Barna's boosted Tenergy 05 fh and H3 boosted bh Marty could have pulled it off in five games. Barna overdomed. Sorry about that, Vik.:eek:
 
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bjgmann, you may forget but, many of the people on this forum speak English as a 2nd, 3rd or 5th language. I think you are smart enough to read between the lines and realize that the forum member you are referring to may have missed a few details. And his spell checker might be going totally crazy since none of what he wrote is an actual word in the language his spell checker speaks.

The complication of you posting something Greg Letts posted that was a dialogue of other people’s posts could confuse the best of us is also worth noting.

But what was the purpose of bringing something like that back into the conversation and presenting in such a mean petty way? Did it serve a purpose for you? Or do you simply revert back to trying to put someone down when you don’t know what else to say?


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Ah censored. This is really getting tiresome. The guy attributed a statement made by a dude named Dadsky to Scott Gordon. Therefore QED I'm a meanie. A meanie I may be, and I'm not, and have never claimed to be, everybody's cup of tea, but I don't give a damn how many languages Ranger-man speaks (he writes in English quite well, though he did not read what the poster Dadsky said with particular care). I post under my own name, not under some Internet alias, my opinions are my own, though some may agree with them, and if you disagree with me, better to ignore me then censor me or gut punch me with the good old ad hominem.
 
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UpSideDownCarl;228939]Okay, so when boosting is legal you won’t have a problem with it?

Yes, I won't have a problem with it. That does not mean, however, that IMO it is a sharp practice doing defenders no good and given today's explosive inverted rubbers shouldn't be all that necessary. Not exactly a ringing endorsement, eh?
 
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It sounds like I just heard bjgmann say that since nothing in the 40s and 50s was against the rules, that back in that era, if someone used H3 or T05 and boosted it, it would have been fine. [emoji2]


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Not just that, but it shows how dishonest his selective use of the word 'doctoring' is. The reasons why there were no infractions for equipment back then (in addition to likely very poor monitoring and wealth by today's standards) is that very little was against the rules.

It's just another excuse to belittle fans of the modern game rather than a substantive point.
 
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Well, in my opinion, the actual issue is whether the forum will be a better place with you or without you. And it seems, so far that you have not really shown me much reason to feel you want to be a member.

I hope you start figuring out better ways of expressing yourself.

The basic content is not the problem. The tone of anger and the intent to insult are the actual problems.

How hard would it really have been to say something like: “Ranger-man, I think you may have misunderstood something. That was not me who said it. I was quoting Greg Letts who was quoting other people.”

But, bjgmann, if you want to complain about someone’s tech skillz (yes the z is on purpose) then you should learn how to use the quote features.

Here. Watch this:

I’m genuinely curious, what’s your end goal? Like, what would be the ideal situation in your opinion, and what’s the path that you think leads there?

It sounds like I just heard bjgmann say.....[emoji2]

A journalist with 26 years experience.....

bjgmann, you may forget but....

Amazing. The things I quoted are in quotations and say who said them. It is really not very hard to figure out the coding for this.

And yet none of your quotes are actually in quotes. Why is this? And if this is the case, why would you be criticizing someone for not realizing that text that was not in quotations of any kind was actually you quoting someone?

I mean, if you can’t figure out how the code for quoting works, these “ ‘ ‘ ” still work. Don’t they?

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Root cause:

Table tennis, or more precisely Ping Pong, ceased to be a Jewish sport(lost its purity) in the '50s at the dawn of Occupied Japan and since the '60s after the rise of Communist China.

Nonetheless, I don't see his personal crusade any different from the very vocal gripes of many other members about Adham Sharara over the no-hidden serve, glue ban, the 40+ etc.

I mean, check out the ONLY comment I got for the video on Nittaku factory. How is that any different?


Well you didn't translate it to english so don't bitch about it, I would have gladly commented.
About how that hot reporter chick has very proficient backhand and a nice looking forehand. That was sweet.
 
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Not just that, but it shows how dishonest his selective use of the word 'doctoring' is. The reasons why there were no infractions for equipment back then (in addition to likely very poor monitoring and wealth by today's standards) is that very little was against the rules.

It's just another excuse to belittle fans of the modern game rather than a substantive point.

I do think this post is centrally important and should not be overlooked.
 
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Well you didn't translate it to english so don't bitch about it, I would have gladly commented.
About how that hot reporter chick has very proficient backhand and a nice looking forehand. That was sweet.
May I ask if English is your 1st language?

If not, I could understand. Otherwise, I have trouble understanding why you could miss what I was bitching about. Perhaps you're one of those unsuspecting members Carl mentioned.

Besides, the only comment I got there reinforces what Bobrow said. Someone who hates it enough to even care to leave a swearing comment, still better than those who don't simply because they couldn't care less.
 
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