Question for Blade-Builders

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So I finally got around to completing the project I was interested in, just for the sake of seeing if it could be done. Here were the constraints of my project:

1) Build a series of blades only out of woods that commonly grow in Oregon
2) Place an emphasis on using wood that isn't grown at all outside of the Pacific Northwest Region
3) Mass produce some handles (I made 18, to be exact), which tends to be the most tedious part for how I was building them
4) No jointed pieces of wood for any layers (all layers, including core woods, are a single/solid/continuous piece of wood)

So, ladies and gentleman, I give you the Pacific Northwest Blade series:
-They're all between 5.55 and 5.95 mm thick
-Weights between 85 and 91 grams.
-All of them use douglas fir as the medial ply.
-The outer plies are western larch, walnut, and douglas fir.
-Core woods are western red cedar and engelmann spruce.
-Handle woods are Red Alder and Giant/Golden Chinkapin, either by themselves or in combination with each other.

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So I finally got around to completing the project I was interested in, just for the sake of seeing if it could be done. Here were the constraints of my project:

1) Build a series of blades only out of woods that commonly grow in Oregon
2) Place an emphasis on using wood that isn't grown at all outside of the Pacific Northwest Region
3) Mass produce some handles (I made 18, to be exact), which tends to be the most tedious part for how I was building them
4) No jointed pieces of wood for any layers (all layers, including core woods, are a single/solid/continuous piece of wood)

So, ladies and gentleman, I give you the Pacific Northwest Blade series:
-They're all between 5.55 and 5.95 mm thick
-Weights between 85 and 91 grams.
-All of them use douglas fir as the medial ply.
-The outer plies are western larch, walnut, and douglas fir.
-Core woods are western red cedar and engelmann spruce.
-Handle woods are Red Alder and Giant/Golden Chinkapin, either by themselves or in combination with each other.

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H.O.F.

Folks, that means Hall of Fame.
 
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love the walnuts!!!!!
 
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I made a blade for one of the older women (she's in her 80s) I play with a couple times a week. My goals with this blade were:

1) Light-weight - It's 65 grams
2) Aesthetically Pleasing
3) Using Oregon Woods for the Handle - Giant Chinkapin and Red Alder
4) Has few "balsa characteristics" (even though it has a balsa core)

Weight: 65 grams
Blade Dimensions: 150x158
Composition: walnut-douglas fir-balsa-douglas fir-walnut
Handle: Red Alder, Walnut veneer strips, Giant Chinkapin
Special Characteristics: Balsa used for light-weight, douglas fir is similar to Limba, and Walnut was used to give some overall hardness to the blade. Balsa was glued to douglas fir with poly glue (for stiffness), and walnut outer plies were glued to the douglas fir using PVA glue which "softens" the feel of a harder outer ply but still retains the overall wood properties (which I'm hoping will cancel out the balsa non-linearity). Walnut finished with a single coat of Polyurethane, the handle was left completely raw to help improve grip when sweating.

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I made a blade for one of the older women (she's in her 80s) I play with a couple times a week. My goals with this blade were:

1) Light-weight - It's 65 grams
2) Aesthetically Pleasing
3) Using Oregon Woods for the Handle - Giant Chinkapin and Red Alder
4) Has few "balsa characteristics" (even though it has a balsa core)

Weight: 65 grams
Blade Dimensions: 150x158
Composition: walnut-douglas fir-balsa-douglas fir-walnut
Handle: Red Alder, Walnut veneer strips, Giant Chinkapin
Special Characteristics: Balsa used for light-weight, douglas fir is similar to Limba, and Walnut was used to give some overall hardness to the blade. Balsa was glued to douglas fir with poly glue (for stiffness), and walnut outer plies were glued to the douglas fir using PVA glue which "softens" the feel of a harder outer ply but still retains the overall wood properties (which I'm hoping will cancel out the balsa non-linearity). Walnut finished with a single coat of Polyurethane, the handle was left completely raw to help improve grip when sweating.

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Super work again Nate. Balsa isn't that easy to cut clean as it's so soft and you've got some very clean lines there, great skill.
It will be interesting to see how the PVA works, I've thought about doing this with inner carbon blades, I think Bobpuls uses PVA on the wood layers. How thick is the balsa core by the way?
Interesting about the varnish and sweating/grip. On occasion I've found the first session with a new blade can leave the handle feeling a bit of a tacky feeling but after that I've found that PU varnished handles give you a really good grip. I do have to resist the temptation to sand too fine as that can make the handle a little 'slick'.
 
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GinjaNinja said:
Super work again Nate. Balsa isn't that easy to cut clean as it's so soft and you've got some very clean lines there, great skill.
It will be interesting to see how the PVA works, I've thought about doing this with inner carbon blades, I think Bobpuls uses PVA on the wood layers. How thick is the balsa core by the way?
Interesting about the varnish and sweating/grip. On occasion I've found the first session with a new blade can leave the handle feeling a bit of a tacky feeling but after that I've found that PU varnished handles give you a really good grip. I do have to resist the temptation to sand too fine as that can make the handle a little 'slick'.

Thanks, Alan!

Those balsa edges are clean...for now! I am able to get the smooth balsa edges to soak in 2 coats of polyurethane before it starts to build up and start bulging out (undesirable, so I only do 2 coats), but I do not think that makes them durable enough for players who hit the edge on the table often. I'm hoping edge tape and some extra glue helps to soften any blows this blade edge will receive. The balsa core is quite thin (1/8"/3.18m), but in my experience, it is sufficiently thick for an all-around and more control focused blade.

I've used PVA glue on a single layer before to soften the feel of Koto and Limba (seems to lower the actual bare-blade frequency by 100hz or so over a blade with PU glue between all layers).

Personally, I varnish/Poly all of my handles, as I find it helps with my grip (oddly, I experience the tackiness you described in the first few sessions only on about 50% of blades, but that feeling does go away and it becomes quite nice). I made a blade for this woman's husband (with polyurethane coated walnut handles), and perhaps it's his grip strength (he's 84), but he drops the blade quite often - I just assumed it was due to being slicker than he was used to, but it might just be normal for him considering the shape his old setup was in. The good news is if she doesn't seem to like the bare wood, I see her 2 days a week and can easily coat the handle for her at a later date.
 
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I just finished up another series of blades. I've been trying to use up my materials so I can store them as completed blades - that way I can spend more of my time actually playing as opposed to testing all of the blades I've made. In this final series, all of these blades have compositions I find ideal:

#1: Limba-Limba-Western Red Cedar (I like the feeling of a harder core than Kiri, and limba-limba is a great feeling control blade)
#2: Walnut-European Larch-Kiri (I like hard outers and the springiness of European Larch is ideal for a medial ply)
#3: Koto-European Larch-Western Red Cedar (The best of both of the above, at the cost of a little more weight)
#4: Koto-European Larch-Engelmann Spruce (My favorite core, outer, and medial ply...but due to a number of factors, this one turned out far too heavy to be practical)

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After running out of veneer-woods last year (and encountering some health issues), I decided to take a break from making blades. Additionally, I was having trouble sourcing solid pieces of Kiri/Ayous for core-woods. With quarantine taking away my time to actually play table tennis, I figured I should get back in to making some blades – this time, the emphasis would be on exclusively using local wood for my core materials. I live in the Pacific Northwest and have half-a-dozen sawmills within a 10-mile radius of me, but most of them are large commercial lumber yards. Recently, I found a tiny two-person mill that’s within 3 miles of my house and the owner is very friendly and willing to cut boards of any species I want (provided he has a log on his property that fits my requests). I don’t understand how he makes a profit, but I guess he’s owned the property for 40 years and doesn’t have much overhead…and he seems genuinely interested in helping me with my project.

For core-woods, I’ve started out with some Redwood that’s hundreds of years old and some newer-growth Western Red Cedar. I know Kevin at American Hinoki has used Redwood before, but I have no experience with it as a core-wood – it has plenty of properties that would lend it to being a good fit for blades: it’s light, relatively strong, and very stable. Unfortunately, I won’t have a chance to test any of the blades I’ve made with it until after the community opens back up. It's also my first time using hide glue. Here’s what I’ve made so far:


#1: Limba (outer) – Alaskan Yellow Cedar (medial) – Redwood (core). Polyurethane Glue. 84 grams.
Handle: Walnut – Douglas Fir – Redwood – Alaskan Yellow Cedar – Redwood – Alaskan Yellow Cedar – Redwood – Douglas Fir – Walnut

#2: Limba (outer) – Alaskan Yellow Cedar (medial) – Redwood (core). Hide Glue. 77 grams.
Handle: Walnut – Douglas Fir – Redwood – Alaskan Yellow Cedar – Redwood – Alaskan Yellow Cedar – Redwood – Douglas Fir – Walnut

<iframe allowfullscreen="true" mozallowfullscreen="true" webkitallowfullscreen="true" style="height: 500px; width: 540px; margin: 10px 0px; padding: 0px;" class="imgur-embed-iframe-pub imgur-embed-iframe-pub-hZc5SUB-true-540" scrolling="no" src="https://imgur.com/hZc5SUB/embed?ref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tabletennisdaily.com%2Fforum%2Fnewreply.php%3Fdo%3Dpostreply%26t%3D17623&w=540" id="imgur-embed-iframe-pub-hZc5SUB"></iframe>
<script async="" src="//s.imgur.com/min/embed.js" charset="utf-8"></script><script async="" src="//s.imgur.com/min/embed.js" charset="utf-8"></script><iframe allowfullscreen="true" mozallowfullscreen="true" webkitallowfullscreen="true" style="height: 500px; width: 540px; margin: 10px 0px; padding: 0px;" class="imgur-embed-iframe-pub imgur-embed-iframe-pub-YbqDRsO-true-540" scrolling="no" src="https://imgur.com/YbqDRsO/embed?ref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tabletennisdaily.com%2Fforum%2Fnewreply.php%3Fdo%3Dpostreply%26t%3D17623&w=540" id="imgur-embed-iframe-pub-YbqDRsO"></iframe><script async="" src="//s.imgur.com/min/embed.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<iframe allowfullscreen="true" mozallowfullscreen="true" webkitallowfullscreen="true" style="height: 500px; width: 540px; margin: 10px 0px; padding: 0px;" class="imgur-embed-iframe-pub imgur-embed-iframe-pub-q51WXVy-true-540" scrolling="no" src="https://imgur.com/q51WXVy/embed?ref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tabletennisdaily.com%2Fforum%2Fnewreply.php%3Fdo%3Dpostreply%26t%3D17623&w=540" id="imgur-embed-iframe-pub-q51WXVy"></iframe><script async="" src="//s.imgur.com/min/embed.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

#3: Koto (outer) – Lutz Spruce (medial #1) – Lutz Spruce (medial #2) – Redwood (core). Poly glue between core and closest medial ply (#2), hide glue between medial #2 and #1, and between medial #1 and outer ply. 84 grams.
Handle: Walnut – Alaskan Yellow Cedar – Western Red Cedar – Alaskan Yellow Cedar - Walnut

<iframe allowfullscreen="true" mozallowfullscreen="true" webkitallowfullscreen="true" style="height: 500px; width: 540px; margin: 10px 0px; padding: 0px;" class="imgur-embed-iframe-pub imgur-embed-iframe-pub-mbJml7V-true-540" scrolling="no" src="https://imgur.com/mbJml7V/embed?ref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tabletennisdaily.com%2Fforum%2Fnewreply.php%3Fdo%3Dpostreply%26t%3D17623&w=540" id="imgur-embed-iframe-pub-mbJml7V"></iframe><script async="" src="//s.imgur.com/min/embed.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<iframe allowfullscreen="true" mozallowfullscreen="true" webkitallowfullscreen="true" style="height: 500px; width: 540px; margin: 10px 0px; padding: 0px;" class="imgur-embed-iframe-pub imgur-embed-iframe-pub-Ith9Fus-true-540" scrolling="no" src="https://imgur.com/Ith9Fus/embed?ref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tabletennisdaily.com%2Fforum%2Fnewreply.php%3Fdo%3Dpostreply%26t%3D17623&w=540" id="imgur-embed-iframe-pub-Ith9Fus"></iframe><script async="" src="//s.imgur.com/min/embed.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<iframe allowfullscreen="true" mozallowfullscreen="true" webkitallowfullscreen="true" style="height: 500px; width: 540px; margin: 10px 0px; padding: 0px;" class="imgur-embed-iframe-pub imgur-embed-iframe-pub-bRZYFIg-true-540" scrolling="no" src="https://imgur.com/bRZYFIg/embed?ref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tabletennisdaily.com%2Fforum%2Fnewreply.php%3Fdo%3Dpostreply%26t%3D17623&w=540" id="imgur-embed-iframe-pub-bRZYFIg"></iframe><script async="" src="//s.imgur.com/min/embed.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

#4: Limba (outer) – Limba (medial) – Redwood (core). Polyurethane Glue. 90 grams.
Handle: Walnut

<iframe allowfullscreen="true" mozallowfullscreen="true" webkitallowfullscreen="true" style="height: 500px; width: 540px; margin: 10px 0px; padding: 0px;" class="imgur-embed-iframe-pub imgur-embed-iframe-pub-J2by30R-true-540" scrolling="no" src="https://imgur.com/J2by30R/embed?ref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tabletennisdaily.com%2Fforum%2Fnewreply.php%3Fdo%3Dpostreply%26t%3D17623&w=540" id="imgur-embed-iframe-pub-J2by30R"></iframe><script async="" src="//s.imgur.com/min/embed.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

#5: Walnut (outer) – Limba (medial) – Redwood (core). Hide Glue. 81 grams.
Handle: Big-Leaf Maple

<iframe allowfullscreen="true" mozallowfullscreen="true" webkitallowfullscreen="true" style="height: 500px; width: 540px; margin: 10px 0px; padding: 0px;" class="imgur-embed-iframe-pub imgur-embed-iframe-pub-vFFyQLH-true-540" scrolling="no" src="https://imgur.com/vFFyQLH/embed?ref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tabletennisdaily.com%2Fforum%2Fnewreply.php%3Fdo%3Dpostreply%26t%3D17623&w=540" id="imgur-embed-iframe-pub-vFFyQLH"></iframe><script async="" src="//s.imgur.com/min/embed.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<iframe allowfullscreen="true" mozallowfullscreen="true" webkitallowfullscreen="true" style="height: 500px; width: 540px; margin: 10px 0px; padding: 0px;" class="imgur-embed-iframe-pub imgur-embed-iframe-pub-ziR8gOg-true-540" scrolling="no" src="https://imgur.com/ziR8gOg/embed?ref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tabletennisdaily.com%2Fforum%2Fnewreply.php%3Fdo%3Dpostreply%26t%3D17623&w=540" id="imgur-embed-iframe-pub-ziR8gOg"></iframe><script async="" src="//s.imgur.com/min/embed.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

#6: Koto (outer) – Lutz Spruce (medial #1) – Lutz Spruce (medial #2) – Western Red Cedar (core). Poly glue between core and closest medial ply (#2), hide glue between medial #2 and #1, and between medial #1 and outer ply. 91 grams.
Handle: Walnut – BigLeaf Maple – Walnut – BigLeaf Maple – Walnut

<iframe allowfullscreen="true" mozallowfullscreen="true" webkitallowfullscreen="true" style="height: 500px; width: 540px; margin: 10px 0px; padding: 0px;" class="imgur-embed-iframe-pub imgur-embed-iframe-pub-AZFbjr7-true-540" scrolling="no" src="https://imgur.com/AZFbjr7/embed?ref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tabletennisdaily.com%2Fforum%2Fnewreply.php%3Fdo%3Dpostreply%26t%3D17623&w=540" id="imgur-embed-iframe-pub-AZFbjr7"></iframe><script async="" src="//s.imgur.com/min/embed.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

#7: Koto (outer) – Spruce (medial) – Redwood (core). Polyurethane glue. 82 grams.
Handle: Walnut – BigLeaf Maple – Walnut – BigLeaf Maple – Walnut

<iframe allowfullscreen="true" mozallowfullscreen="true" webkitallowfullscreen="true" style="height: 500px; width: 540px; margin: 10px 0px; padding: 0px;" class="imgur-embed-iframe-pub imgur-embed-iframe-pub-8qGLGSu-true-540" scrolling="no" src="https://imgur.com/8qGLGSu/embed?ref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tabletennisdaily.com%2Fforum%2Fnewreply.php%3Fdo%3Dpostreply%26t%3D17623&w=540" id="imgur-embed-iframe-pub-8qGLGSu"></iframe><script async="" src="//s.imgur.com/min/embed.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I'm happy to hear suggestions for what I should make next!

-Nate
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says 2023 Certified Organ Donor
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Nate,

If you happen to make an all wood blade with a fatter and longer st handle that has limba outer plies, whatever else construction, normal head size, and any weight upper 80s to low 100s, overall speed anywhere in range of low end OFF to OFF I will buy sight unseen.

I am not opposed to hide glue if you use it.

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Great Blades Nate!

With access to so much core wood I think it would be interesting to make a few similar blades, but changing one variable at a time to make an objective comparison.

Do blades 1 and 2 share the same dimensions? It's curious because I feel hide glue is heavier than PU.
 
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Nate,

If you happen to make an all wood blade with a fatter and longer st handle that has limba outer plies, whatever else construction, normal head size, and any weight upper 80s to low 100s, overall speed anywhere in range of low end OFF to OFF I will buy sight unseen.

I am not opposed to hide glue if you use it.

Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk

Der_Echte,

What are your ideal straight-handle dimensions? I built a thick, round, straight handle for that blade for George a year ago or so ago and I remember you liked it quite a bit, but I can't remember the exact width and height. If I used something lighter than solid-walnut for the handle (like Walnut/Maple combo), I bet I could built you a beast of a blade: a 6.6mm thick, Limba (outer) - Spruce (medial) - Redwood (core) blade would come out to approximately 94 grams.

That being said, I have no idea what a Redwood-core blade plays or feels like. I find Western Red Cedar to feel like a slightly denser, marginally faster version of Ayous. WRC weighs a little more than Redwood, so if I used it, I could make it a little thinner to keep the overall weight down. Thoughts?


Great Blades Nate!

With access to so much core wood I think it would be interesting to make a few similar blades, but changing one variable at a time to make an objective comparison.

Do blades 1 and 2 share the same dimensions? It's curious because I feel hide glue is heavier than PU.

Blade 1 and 2 are identical other than the glue used - even the handles are made from the same slices of wood. I'm not using hot hide glue but am using a liquid version available in the US called "Old Brown Glue". I can't figure out why the hide glue blades are so much lighter than the poly - perhaps it's due to hide-glue losing more water in the curing/drying process?

--#1 and #2 are a comparison of hide glue vs poly glue.
--#3 and #6 have identical compositions and glue structure, the major difference being a Western Red Cedar core in one versus a Redwood core in the other. I did use different handles, but that was because I wanted to change up the aesthetics slightly (I realize that makes it slightly less scientific when I compare them).
--Any comparisons I should investigate next?
 
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I bet I could built you a beast of a blade: a 6.6mm thick, Limba (outer) - Spruce (medial) - Redwood (core) blade would come out to approximately 94 grams.

Nate, I do not know how it would play either, but make it in the composition you suggested with a fatter than normal handle and 5-10 mm longer than normal handle and we can call it a day. Make it and let the chips fall in terms of weight. Not too worried about exact thickness, it will be whatever thickness it comes out to be given your materials. The thickness of 6.6 mm is not too extreme wild for me.

I remember a shipment a tear or so ago where you sent 2 blades, one was a kinda hock shape, the other more classic shape. I really liked how the handle on that one felt and ALMOST didn't give him the blade. George handed me the hock blade a month later... saw it in my truck, and took it back yesterday to try again ! (He was getting a Karis rubber from me in a speak-easy parking lot as he came out of grocery store)
 
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Der_Echte,

--#1 and #2 are a comparison of hide glue vs poly glue.
--#3 and #6 have identical compositions and glue structure, the major difference being a Western Red Cedar core in one versus a Redwood core in the other. I did use different handles, but that was because I wanted to change up the aesthetics slightly (I realize that makes it slightly less scientific when I compare them).
--Any comparisons I should investigate next?

Perhaps you can try to make two exact blades and just change the top ply, Limba and koto would be the main candidates.

But a 7 ply redwood blade would also be very interesting!
 
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Nate, you make THREE of those fat longer ST handles blades and make it better worth your time, make same or whatever variation strikes your fancy. Keep them all wood 5 or 7 play limba outer upper 80s to low 100s grams OFF Minus to OFF speed class and I buy all three (or just one if you willing to make only one) sight unseen pay before you procure materials.

TTD member erm ought to hold one of these, he is in Portland now. You can't miss him, he is the former Romanian natl youth tall 300 lb dude.
 
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Finished up this custom blade for Der_Echte:

7-Ply Composition (152mm W x 158mm L x 6.8mm H): Limba-Spruce-Spruce-Redwood-Spruce-Spruce-Limba
Handle (28.5mm W x 110mm L x 26mm H): Walnut-Western Red Cedar-Walnut
Weight: 98 grams (not too shabby considering the monster-sized-handle)

<iframe allowfullscreen="true" mozallowfullscreen="true" webkitallowfullscreen="true" class="imgur-embed-iframe-pub imgur-embed-iframe-pub-a-8D11L4N-false-540" scrolling="no" src="https://imgur.com/a/8D11L4N/embed?pub=true&ref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tabletennisdaily.com%2Fforum%2Fnewreply.php%3Fdo%3Dpostreply%26t%3D17623&context=false&w=540" id="imgur-embed-iframe-pub-a-8D11L4N" style="height: 500px; width: 540px; margin: 10px 0px; padding: 0px;"></iframe><script async="" src="//s.imgur.com/min/embed.js" charset="utf-8"></script><script async="" src="//s.imgur.com/min/embed.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 
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