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  1. cfagyal is offline
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    #61
    Nate,

    Very intriguing design. This is why I love blade building...we can experiment and try things, and sometimes wonderful results occur out of it. It looks very good. I’m just waiting for my final polyurethane finish layer to complete on my next creation. While I was finishing the ZLC blade I made, I started putting together another composite blade with one of the other carbons I bought. I’ll post about it tomorrow evening likely. I look forward to hearing how that plays. You might also consider using an app like advanced spectrum analyzer (I use it in my android phone...probably similar iOS apps also) to do a bare blade bounce test. Its an interesting way to get some perspective on blade speed, at least that’s what some feel. I’d be curious how some of your creations test... I’ve been tracking that data for all the blades I’ve created.

    Chris

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    #62
    Quote Originally Posted by cfagyal
    Nate,

    Very intriguing design. This is why I love blade building...we can experiment and try things, and sometimes wonderful results occur out of it. It looks very good. I’m just waiting for my final polyurethane finish layer to complete on my next creation. While I was finishing the ZLC blade I made, I started putting together another composite blade with one of the other carbons I bought. I’ll post about it tomorrow evening likely. I look forward to hearing how that plays. You might also consider using an app like advanced spectrum analyzer (I use it in my android phone...probably similar iOS apps also) to do a bare blade bounce test. Its an interesting way to get some perspective on blade speed, at least that’s what some feel. I’d be curious how some of your creations test... I’ve been tracking that data for all the blades I’ve created.

    Chris
    Chris,

    I agree - it's quite fun trying out new combinations.

    This latest blade came in with a peak amplitude at a frequency of 1270 hz, if that tells you anything useful. I have not looked at any of my other blades' frequencies (yet).


    Edit: Tried my older balsa blades I made and still have:

    Limba-Koto-Balsa(4.76 mm)-Koto-Limba = 1518 hz
    Koto-Koto-Balsa(4.76 mm)-Koto-Koto = 1571 hz
    Limba-Mahogany-Koto-Balsa(2.38mm)-Koto-Mahogany-Limba = 1227 hz

    Larch-Spruce-Spruce-Kiri-Spruce-Spruce-Larch = 1485 hz
    Last edited by Nate4s; 07-06-2018 at 06:18 AM.

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    #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Nate4s
    Alright, this blade is my "funkiest" yet. Sure, it looks normal, but it's got all sorts of strange things going on - most notably the ply orientation, gluing, and use of Larch...which I still can't describe how it plays as an outer-ply on one of my previous blades (it's really crisp feeling). On paper, Larch seems similar to Limba (a tad heavier, a tad more elasticity, but similar hardness)...but it does not feel the same. I hope this blade gives some enlightening information on its use as a medial ply.

    -86 grams
    - 3.15 mm Kiri-Core runs horizontal (all of my other blades it runs vertical/top-to-bottom)
    - 0.88 mm thick Larch medial ply (running vertical)
    - 0.5 mm thick Black Limba outer ply (running vertical)
    - Core and medial plies glued with Polyurethane glue (for stiffness, and so it doesn't warp in varying humidity), outer ply glued with waterproof PVA glue (to minimize bleed and try to get an even softer feel)
    - Flared Walnut handle
    -Sealed with Polyurethane

    Attachment 16806

    Attachment 16807

    Great work Nate! It looks like you've been 'bitten' by the 'blade making' bug in a big way, fantastic!
    I'm really keen to know how you find the difference with the core at 90 degrees, I hope you get that flex you're after. Also very keen to know how your 7 ply Kiri core plays. I really like ayous 7 plys but the weight can be a challenge as I prefer less than 90 so I'm planning a 7 ply Kiri.
    Beautiful grain pattern on the walnut handle too, a good material to work with, easy to shape and very pleasant smell when sanding and routing! It's one of my favourite woods, feels good in the hand too.

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  4. langel is online now
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    #64
    Congrats for the beutiful blades!

    I'm very curious how will perform your latest blade with the horizontal core - I would speculate that it should be above medium flexy, but I may be wrong, it will be interesting to see the result.

    About the pitch - my personal understanding is that this method is useble only to choose a blade between several identical. I've measured and I have blades with lower pitch, that are faster than others with higher pitch. It will be interesting to know in what category you position your blades - All, Off.

    Congratulations for the nice work!

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    #65
    Quote Originally Posted by langel
    Congrats for the beutiful blades!

    I'm very curious how will perform your latest blade with the horizontal core - I would speculate that it should be above medium flexy, but I may be wrong, it will be interesting to see the result.

    About the pitch - my personal understanding is that this method is useble only to choose a blade between several identical. I've measured and I have blades with lower pitch, that are faster than others with higher pitch. It will be interesting to know in what category you position your blades - All, Off.

    Congratulations for the nice work!
    Thanks for the insight, langel! It will be interesting to know if the frequency information adds anything meaningful to my understanding of the little tweaks I'm making in blade composition. Also, I hope you're right and it's a flexy little blade.

    Quote Originally Posted by GinjaNinja
    Great work Nate! It looks like you've been 'bitten' by the 'blade making' bug in a big way, fantastic!
    I'm really keen to know how you find the difference with the core at 90 degrees, I hope you get that flex you're after. Also very keen to know how your 7 ply Kiri core plays. I really like ayous 7 plys but the weight can be a challenge as I prefer less than 90 so I'm planning a 7 ply Kiri.
    Beautiful grain pattern on the walnut handle too, a good material to work with, easy to shape and very pleasant smell when sanding and routing! It's one of my favourite woods, feels good in the hand too.
    Indeed I have, Alan! I don't have a good sense of how a 7 ply kiri core might be different from a 7 ply ayous blade, all other factors held constant - I need to look and see if I can get some reasonably priced ayous to add to my arsenal. The 7 ply with Larch outer plys plays in a way that's confusing to me - it feels heavier than blades I know weigh more, it has very little felt vibration, but it's faster than the 5 plys of similar composition and seems to let me add a little more top-spin. I don't know how much of that is the Larch vs it being 7-ply. So far, I don't love 7 plies (mainly due to it being a struggle to keep them under 90 g).

    I love walnut too (the smell, the subtle beauty, workability, and affordability), and for me there is something neat about a single piece handle - I feel like it handles vibration differently than a few different woods pressed together (that might just be in my head). I have some really neat pieces of walnut I'll use once I find the right blade combination that's "worthy".

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    #66
    Quote Originally Posted by langel
    Congrats for the beutiful blades!

    I'm very curious how will perform your latest blade with the horizontal core - I would speculate that it should be above medium flexy, but I may be wrong, it will be interesting to see the result.

    About the pitch - my personal understanding is that this method is useble only to choose a blade between several identical. I've measured and I have blades with lower pitch, that are faster than others with higher pitch. It will be interesting to know in what category you position your blades - All, Off.

    Congratulations for the nice work!
    I feel the same, I have blades with lower pitch which are faster than blades with a higher pitch. Personally I don't find the frequency test to be that useful. A bounce test gives me some idea of pace but you will only know when you test it with rubbers and then you need to get several players to have input to get a true picture.I sometimes find it hard to be objective with my own blades. I am often biased because I'm excited about a new material or some new build technique I've used and therefore I really want to like the blade.

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    #67
    I am undecided how useful the frequency test is. I started doing it when i started blade making as just a statistic to take as a means of comparison, but i've not yet been able to really determine for myself whether the differences actually are meaningful when it comes to blade performance. All of my 5 and 7 ply wood blades fell between 1070 and 1383. They all had either Western Red Cedar Cores or Kiri Cores. I have not played with Balsa yet. So perhaps the relative stiffness and hardness (as compared to Balsa) of the cores I used played a role in that different pitch, plus perhaps the thickness, as I wouldn't dream of a 4.7mm core of either of the two woods I mentioned due to weight.

    Some example compositions i've made with their frequencies for comparison:

    Makore - Longleaf Pine - Western Red Cedar (WRC) - Longleaf Pine - Makore -- 1383 Hz
    Mahogany - Primavera - WRC - Primavera - Mahogany -- 1340 Hz
    Karelian Birch - Black Walnut - Okoume - WRC - Okoume - Black Walnut - Karelian Birch -- 1218 Hz
    Mahogany - Douglas Fir - Lutz Spruce - WRC - Lutz Spruce - Douglas Fir - Mahogany -- 1321 HZ

    The two composites I made:

    Chestnut Burl - Lutz Spruce - Zylon Carbon - WRC - Zylon Carbon - Lutz Spruce - Chestnut Burl -- 1725 Hz
    Mahogany - Primetex 12k Spread Tow (ST) Carbon - Lutz Spruce - Kiri - Lutz Spruce - Primetex 12k ST Carbon - Mahogany -- 1549 Hz

    I will say bare bounce test on the two composite blades, they are definitely way faster than any all-wood composition i've made. The 2nd one especially feels like an absolute beast of a blade with how fast the ball comes off the blade. Perhaps that is the stiff carbon just below the flexible mahogany outer ply. The ZLC blade has a much softer more subtle speed to it, but a higher pitch. I haven't yet had a chance to put rubber on each of them to test them out.

    Nate: I'll be very curious your experiences with Larch... That is a wood I haven't used yet, but it definitely appears to have good characteristics for blade making.

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    #68
    Pitch testing is more useful to test the response curve of the blade, rather than its 'speed'.
    Drop a ball from various heights and check both bounce and pitch, noting the response curve.

    Blades (and rubbers) arent just fast or slow. The character of it is the response curve.


    But then, this too is limited because you need more elaborate methods to test the curve at anythin over low energy impact

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    #69
    bassicaly look here for more about the frequency
    http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=31831
    according them it is defined something like this

    Under 1,000 is DEF
    1000 - 1,100 ALL
    1,100 - 1,250 ALL+
    1,250 - 1,400 OFF-
    1,400 - 1,600 OFF
    1,600-. OFF+

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    #70
    Well, we have discussed the pitch method here about a year ago I think, just can't find the thead, but you can try.
    In that thread I mentioned that, aside all other arguments, we don't have a stndartized ball to use it for the test all arround the world. Even if we use only one selected brand and model it will not garantee a trustable result. Recently Fabian started this thread:
    https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/for...-DHS-D40-balls

    One can use this method for some kind of exploration on materials and analyzing the results of his own work, but generalizations have to be made with care.

    Statistically the pitch results in those pdf files may fit the speed range of some blades, but for others it doesn't work, and there is a huge amount of brands and models that are not measured.
    I have a blade with pitch of about 1750 and is OFF-/OFF, one with 1400 which is OFF++, another with 1600 which is OFF+.

    Most of the blades are not linear and are changing the speed somewhat hyperbolic or somewhat parabolic in different regions of the gears. With a single pitch its imposible to measure the dynamics of speed change and/or the maximum a blade is capable of.

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    #71
    Quote Originally Posted by langel
    Well, we have discussed the pitch method here about a year ago I think, just can't find the thead, but you can try.
    In that thread I mentioned that, aside all other arguments, we don't have a stndartized ball to use it for the test all arround the world. Even if we use only one selected brand and model it will not garantee a trustable result. Recently Fabian started this thread:
    https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/for...-DHS-D40-balls

    One can use this method for some kind of exploration on materials and analyzing the results of his own work, but generalizations have to be made with care.

    Statistically the pitch results in those pdf files may fit the speed range of some blades, but for others it doesn't work, and there is a huge amount of brands and models that are not measured.
    I have a blade with pitch of about 1750 and is OFF-/OFF, one with 1400 which is OFF++, another with 1600 which is OFF+.

    Most of the blades are not linear and are changing the speed somewhat hyperbolic or somewhat parabolic in different regions of the gears. With a single pitch its imposible to measure the dynamics of speed change and/or the maximum a blade is capable of.
    Very insightful. Thanks, langel! My results were very consistent between a butterfly g40+ ball and a killerspin 3-star celluloid ball. I would agree about the usefulness and generalizations that can be made from a single pitch metric, as one of the newest blades I tested showed some frequency spikes in the 1,700 hz range (although the highest peak was at a much lower frequency) - I expect this blade to play in a highly dynamic fashion, depending on blade speed and stroke angle.

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    #72
    I belong to a wood-working co-op. I went there to thin some veneers for a project I'm working on for another TTD member and I noticed some beautiful, ancient western red cedar resting up against the wall. The people running the place were happy to let me have it, so I decided to build a single ply out of it and used the scrap to make a handle. 92 grams - looking forward to trying it out!

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    #73
    I think he is making a couple of blades for someone I WISH would become a TTD member.

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    #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Nate4s
    I belong to a wood-working co-op. I went there to thin some veneers for a project I'm working on for another TTD member and I noticed some beautiful, ancient western red cedar resting up against the wall. The people running the place were happy to let me have it, so I decided to build a single ply out of it and used the scrap to make a handle. 92 grams - looking forward to trying it out!

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    Great looking blade Nate! What's the thickness?

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    #75
    Quote Originally Posted by GinjaNinja
    Great looking blade Nate! What's the thickness?
    Thanks, Alan! It's 8.75mm.

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    #76
    Blade I completed for Der_Echte's friend, George.

    -Oversized blade face
    -Large straight handle
    -Composition: Mahogany (Khaya) - European Larch - Balsa - Mahogany (Khaya) - European Larch
    -Walnut handle
    -7.2 mm thick
    -86 grams

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    Last edited by Nate4s; 08-29-2018 at 10:11 AM.

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    #77
    really nice looking blade ... and great closeups !

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    #78
    I love the looks of this blade, eagerly looking for a review when he starts playing with it.

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    #79
    Damn good pics, man !!!

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    #80
    G is gunna simply drool over that fat core ply.

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