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  1. Andyzhao123 is offline
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    #1

    Tips for forehand topspin/loop

    Hi! I'm a late beginner penholder in table tennis. I want to hear all of your tips and advice on the forehand topspin. Please feel free to post anything that can be helpful. Thanks!

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  2. zeio is offline
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    #2
    Please feel free to post anything that can be helpful. Thanks!
    Switch to shakehand. Even Wang Hao has abandoned ship.

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    #3
    Shake hands vs c-pen is not a religious issue to me. What force or impulse can I generate that I can't with the other?

    One of the most important things to learn is how to loop a push or back spin serve. The natural tendency is to rotate your upper arm around your shoulder. This results in the paddle going forward before going up resulting in the paddle moving in an arc. This is not good. Start with the paddle behind your knee. The swing should be in a plane. The attitude the paddle should change as little as possible during the time the ball can hit the paddle. If the paddle's attitude is always changing the ball will go to different places depending on whether you hit the ball a few milliseconds early or late. avoid reaching.

    Find a robot and practicing hitting the ball and listen to the sound. Gradually close the paddle angle so you are brushing the ball more but you will need to swing faster. Use your legs and body to twist and provide extra speed. If you keep closing the paddle you will notice the sound changes since the ball is only stretching the top sheet of the rubber. The sound will be quieter. Your timing must be very good to do this because the effective area of the paddle is reduces as you close the paddle.

    Get someone to watch the trajectory of the balls you hit. If you are looping well the observer should see the ball dive toward the table faster than normal. After the ball hits the table it should jump forward faster and lower than normal. When you achieve this you are truly looping not just putting top spin on the ball.

    When playing I am not too concerned about the arc. High arcs will result in high bounces that will be attacked. I am also not to concerned about the ball skipping forward towards the opponent if the ball is moving quickly. Placement and speed are the key. The amount of top spin should be just enough to achieve the goal of placing the ball where you want as quickly as possible. The top spin is not a goal in itself.

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    #4
    A good way to start is brush the ball upwards when the ball isnstarting to go down. At least you will develop your brush and contact of the ball first.

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    #5
    I'm a big proponent of observing something done well, then trying to go and emulate it vs written instruction.

    Better to have your conscious mind turned off while performing your swing.

    So this is the best advice I can give you.





    Now go and do likewise. Simply give us your best Xu Xin impression. Not asking the quality of your shots to be on his level. Just asking you to the best of your ability, try to have your body copy what you see. Pay attention to the details.

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  6. ZhouZhekai is offline
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    #6
    Disclosure: I am not a pen hold player, but these are some observations i have made about the forehand stroke, and i think that they are transferable to pen hold, but take it with a grain of salt.
    I am assuming you would want to play a Chinese technique given that you are pen hold with Skyline Rubbers. At first i would just say get a feel for the ball. That means do simple drives, and get used to the trajectory and consistency of the ball and the stroke. Once you feel comfortable try to do small things, such as applying enough pressure with your 3 fingers on your backhand so your stroke is more stable, and learn to guide the ball. Then you should start with the forehand topspin. Some key points:
    1. Use waist, use waist use waist. As a Penhold player you will generate most power using your waist. This means that you should practice turning your waist back, and then forward when hitting the ball. They are tons of Youtube videos on this. This will also naturally lead to weight transfer which will allow you to add more power.
    2. Stand deep. In the short term it might seem useless, and makes one less stable, However over the long term on gains better stability, and it makes i easier to generate power using the waist. For me this is a very important step.

  7. songdavid98 is offline
    says it's not practice if there's no counterattacking
     
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    #7
    do you have any specific questions? Asking for something so broad is like asking for an entire library.

    I happen to be a (lefty) penholder who used to use skyline 3 neo.

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    Always go forward

  8. Andyzhao123 is offline
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    #8
    Quote Originally Posted by songdavid98
    do you have any specific questions? Asking for something so broad is like asking for an entire library.

    I happen to be a (lefty) penholder who used to use skyline 3 neo.
    Alrighty, here are some of the main questions I have:
    -What should the start and end position be like, and what are the most important details?
    -Where is the ideal timing when contacting the ball? (Location of the ball when contacting and where on the ball should I be contacting)
    -What's the best way to improve consistency?
    -How to be more confident when executing the stroke?

  9. songdavid98 is offline
    says it's not practice if there's no counterattacking
     
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    #9
    Starting position depends on the spin of the ball and on the height of the ball. If the ball is of net height and backspin and long, try starting close to knee height and swing up to the ball. Don't swing too far back for this one or you won't get the right contact for spinning the ball.

    Net height topspin long, you start higher and further back.

    As for ending position, your racket should be at around head height and a little in front of your head, but that can change depending on how much you lean forwards. (Advanced note)There are exceptions to this, like when the ball is coming into your elbow. In that case, you can end at your opposite shoulder if there's a lot of topspin (or above the opposite shoulder if you really need to lift the ball). At the end of the day, the forehand loop is a stroke that is meant to have physical variations so that it can handle all situations.

    This video should help
    https://youtu.be/mKFTcOtF58E?t=31

    **********

    If you are standing on an analog clock and 12 o clock is in front of you, I'd say 2 or 10 o clock is the timing.
    (Advanced note)This can change depending on if you really want some bigger angles.
    As for where on the ball you want to contact, that depends on whether you want to lift it, or if you want to send it forward. Go up against the back of the ball if you want to lift it. Go forward on the top of the ball to send it forward.

    **********

    Inconsistency in practice can be caused by a lot of things, like technical problems. Make sure you fix those technical problems when you practice. When it comes to games, the number thing that causes inconsistency is a lack of observation and adjustment. You have to understand that each shot is not the same and that you will have to personally tailor each loop to each ball on the fly. You can't expect the shots you see in practice to be the same as those in a game everytime.

    If you don't notice that a ball is lower than usual, or spinnier than usual, you will miss and you won't know why. So step one is to observe the ball the best you can and see everything about it.
    The next step is to be able to adapt your stroke to the ball. If you do see that a ball is lower than usual, you will have to lift it a little more, so you will have to change your racket angle and go up a little more. If you see a ball isn't as long, you can't lift up as much as before or else your shot will go long, so you angle down and go forward to compensate. Maybe you see a ball that does not go your sweet spot of your swing, so you have to move your feet to get the ball and yourself in the perfect positions.

    *************

    If you want to be confident, you have to practice being confident. Sometimes, I like to pretend that I am the world champion, and I go for every amazing shot possible. I don't care if I miss (I understand that it is part of the learning process, and so should you). When I do this, I get to practice hitting hard and I get the feeling for it, which builds my confidence.
    Naturally, when you get better and more consistent at the stroke, you will become more confident. So, I guess you can try to get better and more consistent, and then you can try my method of pretending to be the world champion.

    *****

    In the end, none of questions required the knowledge of specifically a penholder with skyline. Anyone here could have answered these questions. Just make sure your questions are specific, and those of us here will answer to the best of our ability.

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    Last edited by songdavid98; 05-24-2018 at 10:14 PM.
    Always go forward

  10. Andyzhao123 is offline
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    #10
    Quote Originally Posted by songdavid98
    Starting position depends on the spin of the ball and on the height of the ball. If the ball is of net height and backspin and long, try starting close to knee height and swing up to the ball. Don't swing too far back for this one or you won't get the right contact for spinning the ball.

    Net height topspin long, you start higher and further back.

    As for ending position, your racket should be at around head height and a little in front of your head, but that can change depending on how much you lean forwards. (Advanced note)There are exceptions to this, like when the ball is coming into your elbow. In that case, you can end at your opposite shoulder if there's a lot of topspin (or above the opposite shoulder if you really need to lift the ball). At the end of the day, the forehand loop is a stroke that is meant to have physical variations so that it can handle all situations.

    This video should help
    https://youtu.be/mKFTcOtF58E?t=31

    **********

    If you are standing on an analog clock and 12 o clock is in front of you, I'd say 2 or 10 o clock is the timing.
    (Advanced note)This can change depending on if you really want some bigger angles.
    As for where on the ball you want to contact, that depends on whether you want to lift it, or if you want to send it forward. Go up against the back of the ball if you want to lift it. Go forward on the top of the ball to send it forward.

    **********

    Inconsistency in practice can be caused by a lot of things, like technical problems. Make sure you fix those technical problems when you practice. When it comes to games, the number thing that causes inconsistency is a lack of observation and adjustment. You have to understand that each shot is not the same and that you will have to personally tailor each loop to each ball on the fly. You can't expect the shots you see in practice to be the same as those in a game everytime.

    If you don't notice that a ball is lower than usual, or spinnier than usual, you will miss and you won't know why. So step one is to observe the ball the best you can and see everything about it.
    The next step is to be able to adapt your stroke to the ball. If you do see that a ball is lower than usual, you will have to lift it a little more, so you will have to change your racket angle and go up a little more. If you see a ball isn't as long, you can't lift up as much as before or else your shot will go long, so you angle down and go forward to compensate. Maybe you see a ball that does not go your sweet spot of your swing, so you have to move your feet to get the ball and yourself in the perfect positions.

    *************

    If you want to be confident, you have to practice being confident. Sometimes, I like to pretend that I am the world champion, and I go for every amazing shot possible. I don't care if I miss (I understand that it is part of the learning process, and so should you). When I do this, I get to practice hitting hard and I get the feeling for it, which builds my confidence.
    Naturally, when you get better and more consistent at the stroke, you will become more confident. So, I guess you can try to get better and more consistent, and then you can try my method of pretending to be the world champion.

    *****

    In the end, none of questions required the knowledge of specifically a penholder with skyline. Anyone here could have answered these questions. Just make sure your questions are specific, and those of us here will answer to the best of our ability.
    Thank you so much for your time writing this to inform me. I will keep these details in mind when playing and practicing. Thank you!

  11. SFF_lib is offline
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    #11
    Very good info above. One more thing. To execute deadly topspin consistently, train your legs regularly. The quadriceps are critical for the stability of your body in attack position and the power of your topspin. With strong legs you will learn and improvea lot more quickly.

    Do a lot of squats and put weight on yourself. Slowly increase the intensity. You will feel the difference I guaranty.

    Just look at the legs of the pro.

    Passionate about TT

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    #12
    this is the video that I have done just today that teaches how to do forehand loop before doing multiballs fh vs underspin. you may be a penhold player but the principles are the same.

    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/6diZVBQcIGw" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    https://youtu.be/6diZVBQcIGw

    FH Loop - pre-multiball stage
    Teaching FH Loop or topspin is a challenge for beginners but a coach can find ways to lessen the difficulty as well as practice the key points of the stroke before a player can actually do multiballs. The objectives of this exercise are:
    1. to make the trainee practice bending the knees at the beginning of the stroke as this is a challenge at this stage of development.
    2. to emphasize the importance of bending the knees as this gives extra power when looping underspin. Also, the racket should be at least at the side of the right knee (if you are right-handed) at the beginning of the stroke when you are dipping your racket towards the floor.
    3. to have the elbow should be relaxed and slightly extended as you turn towards the right twisting pivoting your torso.
    4. to practice pivoting the torso at the same time shifting the weight of the body from your left foot to your right foot and back to neutral position after follow through of the stroke.
    5. to enable the trainee to wait for the the ball before hitting or brushing it as the stroke's timing is challenging for beginners. This exercise will make teh trainee wait for the ball to come down because he can position himself before the ball goes towards the side of the body.
    6. to enable trainee to practice brushing the ball thinly instead of hitting through the sponge. This is a key skill that needs to be developed by beginners since it enables a player to feel the ball by brushing it. Power is not emphasize on this exercise as power can be easily developed during multiball practice and matchplays. This is the reason why the ball is being hit or brushed upon at late or delayed timing instead of looping the ball on the rise or at the peak of the bounce.
    7. to practice this at first 1-2 weeks before actually going to multiball stage. This is done in tandem with fh loop/topspin shadow drills before this exercise is done.

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    Last edited by yogi_bear; 05-26-2018 at 02:58 PM.
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  13. UpSideDownCarl is offline
    says I like to hit Heavy Topspin
     
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    #13
    To some extent, having video of your FH to show would help people know what info is most useful for you. Is there any way you can make a short video 15-30 seconds of your FH?

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  14. UpSideDownCarl is offline
    says I like to hit Heavy Topspin
     
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    #14
    Quote Originally Posted by yogi_bear
    this is the video that I have done just today that teaches how to do forehand loop before doing multiballs fh vs underspin. you may be a penhold player but the principles are the same.

    <a href="https://youtu.be/6diZVBQcIGw" target="_blank">
    Hey, Yogi, is that you in the video. Nice job. That is a good way to practice FH loop to get the fundamentals.

    To practice self hitting FH loops I like letting the ball bounce on the table to get more reps faster:



    But I let the ball bounce 2x before hitting it when I self hit. In the BH video from your channel, the student may have better timing with 2 bounces instead of 1. But both work.

    And being back behind the table allows you to work on a bigger loop than being on the table. So both have their place.

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    Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 05-26-2018 at 05:02 PM.
    Setup 1: Blade by Nate: Vortex Spin Machine, FH Evolution MX-K, BH Evolution FX-P
    Setup 2: OSP Virtuoso Plus, FH Rasanter R 48, BH Rasanter R 48
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    #15
    Yup it is me.

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    #16
    Your way of practicing also is a good way for the player to wait for the ball in which beginners sometimes rush to hit the ball. There are lots of ways to teach looping, one just need to be creative.

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  17. Andyzhao123 is offline
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    #17
    Should I try to get a video of my forehand loop/topspin and have you guys help tweak it?

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  18. UpSideDownCarl is offline
    says I like to hit Heavy Topspin
     
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    #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Andyzhao123
    Should I try to get a video of my forehand loop/topspin and have you guys help tweak it?
    Yep. It doesn't need to be longer than 30-60 seconds. But you can still film as much as you like. Details about theory don't necessarily get at what you may be missing.

    Also, seeing footage of yourself can really help you improve.

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  19. Andyzhao123 is offline
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    #19
    Hi guys!

    I'm sorry that I couldn't get a video earlier. It's been raining the past week (I use outdoor table), and EOC's are this week. Sorry for the lateness. I'll get the video out as soon as I can.

  20. UpSideDownCarl is offline
    says I like to hit Heavy Topspin
     
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    #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Andyzhao123
    Hi guys!

    I'm sorry that I couldn't get a video earlier. It's been raining the past week (I use outdoor table), and EOC's are this week. Sorry for the lateness. I'll get the video out as soon as I can.
    No worry. No rush. Only video when you can. In the end, the video will help your game even if you are the only one who sees it. But there are people who will be able to help you improve faster when we do see it.

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    Setup 1: Blade by Nate: Vortex Spin Machine, FH Evolution MX-K, BH Evolution FX-P
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