Japan Open 2018 - a beginning of the new trend?

Shifu · Jun 12, 2018

Okay I can actually specify what I mean and what I can clearly see. The ABS balls lose a lot more spin when touching the table. This is clearly visible on serves. And the balls that come my way seem to have less spin but that is hard to see. But with my own serves it’s pretty obvious. CA and celluloid balls don’t lose the spin on the bounce as much. I find it a lot easier to return services with ABS balls.

RogerH · Jun 12, 2018

CroneOne said:
I was amazed by Mima Ito more than Harimoto. I haven't watched her before (I know, shame) but some of her creativity was very impressive. The quality of her alternative shots "banana split", "strawberry" were so good that they fooled her opponent regularly. She played her game, not the Chinese game. Meaning when I look at the top, non-Chinese men, they all play 2 wing looping, attack with top spin first with very little creativity. Ito had me saying "wow". Her serve, which you could say is non-Chinese (I don't see many Chinese doing punch serve) was very effective too. I'm a fan of hers now. This type of play - thinking outside the box - is what it takes to beat the best imho.

I quite agree. Everyone is going on about Harimoto but I would much rather watch Ito because of her style of play. She hits it like a rocket and is so fast staying up at the table and taking the ball early. She is a pleasure to watch and to think she is only 17. What does the future hold for her.

jawien · Jun 12, 2018

For me Butterfly and Tibhars are quite different if compared to Andro 3d or DHS, which I think are more cell like (sort of okay'ish for me).

Does this tournament marks in some way a change in style of the modern tt? I might regret it ; ) but I would dare to say yes - following EmRatThing. Tomokazu already proved he matured enough (even with his 14 years old boy physique!) to pose a serious thread to the CNT. If he gets beaten, then rather by his own weapon (I'm referring here to his match with LGL + left hand) or that he didn't put enough pressure on the oponent, and the opponent was quite strong - specially bh side (this is my assessment of his match with Liam). Bunch of other young guns representing a similar style (Ito, Hirano, Truls Moregarth) have better and better results. Btw, I agree with the remark about Ito's creativity, till now, even after watching it a thousand times, I have no idea how the strawberry works.

Will CNT find a "counter style" different from what's already on the table today? Maybe Liu Guoliang will come back with his short pips? Who knows, life is rich ... but till Tokyo is seems to me very unlikely, mainly because there are less lego bricks to build your model with. Before there was spin and speed, now it seems what is left is just speed ... ZJK and Ma's forehands in this year's JP Open weren't anything like those lethal weapons they used to be in the past ... and this is not very encouraging.

Baal · Jun 13, 2018

Fabian said:
Okay I can actually specify what I mean and what I can clearly see. The ABS balls lose a lot more spin when touching the table. This is clearly visible on serves. And the balls that come my way seem to have less spin but that is hard to see. But with my own serves it’s pretty obvious. CA and celluloid balls don’t lose the spin on the bounce as much. I find it a lot easier to return services with ABS balls.

OK, but you need to untangle that from the fact that CA balls stay lower and also the brand and age of table affects the conclusion. Also you are not seeing the spin usually. You are seeing the effect of the spin.

And again, there is no reason to think this affects CNT players more than others.

Shifu · Jun 13, 2018

Baal said:
OK, but you need to untangle that from the fact that CA balls stay lower and also the brand and age of table affects the conclusion. Also you are not seeing the spin usually. You are seeing the effect of the spin.

And again, there is no reason to think this affects CNT players more than others.

Here Dima says that the "new balls" (right before WTTC 2017, so he means ABS because they already played with poly for years) take away some of the quality of the Chinese rubbers.

And quotes by Timo Boll from November 2017:

"Sie haben momentan große Probleme mit dem neuen Ball. Sie sagen es sogar selber"

"They have problems with the new ball. They even say that themselves"

"Da das Thema Material-Doping für mich immer noch nicht vom Tisch ist, ist es schön, dass durch die Verbesserung des Balls das Niveau endlich wieder angeglichen wird"

"Since the equipment-doping topic is still on the table it's nice that through the improvements of the ball the playing level gets equalized."

https://www.sport.de/news/ne2970257/boll-chinesen-leiden-unter-neuem-material/

NextLevel · Jun 13, 2018

Fabian said:
Here Dima says that the "new balls" (right before WTTC 2017, so he means ABS because they already played with poly for years) take away some of the quality of the Chinese rubbers.

And quotes by Timo Boll from November 2017:

"Sie haben momentan große Probleme mit dem neuen Ball. Sie sagen es sogar selber"

"They have problems with the new ball. They even say that themselves"

"Da das Thema Material-Doping für mich immer noch nicht vom Tisch ist, ist es schön, dass durch die Verbesserung des Balls das Niveau endlich wieder angeglichen wird"

"Since the equipment-doping topic is still on the table it's nice that through the improvements of the ball the playing level gets equalized."

https://www.sport.de/news/ne2970257/boll-chinesen-leiden-unter-neuem-material/

I am actually closer to your position on this topic. I think that the cellulose acetate ball was too soft, but I think that celluloid itself is softer than ABS. This makes the ball easier to deform and more inconsistent, making it also deform more when it hits the table and the racket. This is what I think gives rise to the "spin effect" that people are missing. The rough exterior of cellulose might play a role but not much IMO. The higher weight of the new balls give size and material also plays a role.

Some people consider the greater reliability of ABS a bad thing. I personally much prefer it. It hurt my game but I liked how I didn't have to react to unpredictable deviations as much. To each his own on this one.

It is clear to me that some balls that would have won points outright are easier to bring back. I honestly don't consider this a bad thing. But taking the ball early is still very hard to do. Especially at pro level speeds. Especially when playing the likes of Ma Long, Fan Zhendong and Liang Jingkun. Don't let Harimoto, Lin Gaoyuan and Timo Boll fool you.

Sali · Jun 13, 2018

I always admired inteligent players who use more strategy, variations during game. The same time never liked fast hitters - boom boom. I am very happy these days that footwork and speed are not the main factors.
What is more imporant chinese players are not safe anymore. That makes competition more interesting. For the first time I remember Sunday was not only good to watch if you take the level of players but I could also be a supporter and feel more stress about the score then usual.

Shifu · Jun 13, 2018

NextLevel said:
I am actually closer to your position on this topic. I think that the cellulose acetate ball was too soft, but I think that celluloid itself is softer than ABS. This makes the ball easier to deform and more inconsistent, making it also deform more when it hits the table and the racket. This is what I think gives rise to the "spin effect" that people are missing. The rough exterior of cellulose might play a role but not much IMO. The higher weight of the new balls give size and material also plays a role.

Some people consider the greater reliability of ABS a bad thing. I personally much prefer it. It hurt my game but I liked how I didn't have to react to unpredictable deviations as much. To each his own on this one.

It is clear to me that some balls that would have won points outright are easier to bring back. I honestly don't consider this a bad thing. But taking the ball early is still very hard to do. Especially at pro level speeds. Especially when playing the likes of Ma Long, Fan Zhendong and Liang Jingkun. Don't let Harimoto, Lin Gaoyuan and Timo Boll fool you.

You always heard that it was very hard to block the topspins of the Chinese players because the ball dipped down and did not bounce up. Since the old balls, celluloid and CA, were softer, the harder sponges with their hard hits compressed those balls a lot more than the ABS balls. So maybe this 'effect' is gone. Just a theory...

NextLevel · Jun 13, 2018

Fabian said:
You always heard that it was very hard to block the topspins of the Chinese players because the ball dipped down and did not bounce up. Since the old balls, celluloid and CA, were softer, the harder sponges with their hard hits compressed those balls a lot more than the ABS balls. So maybe this 'effect' is gone. Just a theory...

The bounce of celluloid was nice but it was definitely more inconsistent as the ball got larger as the 40mm ball felt thinner. I think ABS material makes it more consistent like the 38mm ball but the increase in size reduces the ball movement. If you have a 38mm Nittaku or TSP ball, play with it, it can feel like a rock sometimes.

tropical · Jun 13, 2018

What ball did they play in China Open 2018?

Shifu · Jun 13, 2018

D40+ just like on all world tour events.

Baal · Jun 13, 2018

Of course all of this is confounded by higher bounce of ABS.

I still don't buy that this affects CNT players disproportionately. But I also could be wrong. Not enough data. Too many variables.

tropical · Jun 14, 2018

So in China Open it is the same ball they played in Japan Open. Why did ML win and not HT who some said more adapting to the new ball?

shakehand · Jun 14, 2018

tropical said:
So in China Open it is the same ball they played in Japan Open. Why did ML win and not HT who some said more adapting to the new ball?

Exactly. cannot agree more

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

zeio · Jun 14, 2018

jawien said:
Yes, but speed would be precisely one of the characteristics of the "new trend" ... taking the ball as early as possible thus leaving no time for the opponent.

I really liked your observation usualsuspect, the lack of fh to fh rallies and the predominant bh exchanges. I watched again highlights of ML vs TH and ZJK vs TH. Forehand to fh rallies, especially those away from the table were literally NON existent. It was even irritating for me when Tomo could play this dismissive flat hit against ZJK's fh top spin (2:2, 7:6) and it was a pattern basically. For this I went back to 2011 Wang Hao vs ML in Rotterdam. It was a career defining match for Ma Long. I think WH back then used the same strategy against ML as Harimoto did at JP Open - namely to pin Ma Long on the bh side with fast (possibly off the bounce) attacks and go down the line as soon as he tries to turn to the fh. Would Harimoto be able to do the same back then ... ? Notice how many fh to fh rallies that match had ...

Don't get me wrong, despite my analysis I think The Kid is a genius anyway ...

You should check out the one in Paris. It went exactly like this Japan Open, even the game score unfolded in exactly the same manner. In both instances, ML kept popping up the receives, and barely made one chiquita. He was reluctant to initiate BH exchanges and actively fell back on his FH, especially in the 6th game.

Raylazyfo · Jun 14, 2018

NextLevel said:
We can debate that all we want to but in my opinion you are wrong on both fronts. His backhand action is unique as is his fast attack playing style. Moreover, prodigy and genius are often used interchangeably to describe gifted individuals.

So your opinion is yours, and I hate semantic debates but I respectfully 100% disagree.

I admit that I am biased against Harimoto because I like the traditional idea of Table Tennis as a gentleman's sport and I feel that his incessant screaming after every point is disrespectful to the game.

However, I also cannot see the difference between his game and that of say, Lin Gaoyuan or Lin Yun Ju, so for me his game is not unique.

Baal · Jun 14, 2018

Ito and Harimoto are quite different. They both had great weeks.

Tropical is right. If you make crazy theories to explain this last week they ought to explain previous results from just a little earlier this year.

Finally, anyone who writes "thanks to Em Rat Thic I know why" needs to think a bit more critically. ERT never bases what he says on any quantitative argument and there is no reason to think a Vietnamese guy living in France who we have never seen play has any special insights into the CNT.

I don't like Harimoto's choing but I find him amazing, and it can't be reduced to just one thing.

NextLevel · Jun 14, 2018

Raylazyfo said:
I admit that I am biased against Harimoto because I like the traditional idea of Table Tennis as a gentleman's sport and I feel that his incessant screaming after every point is disrespectful to the game.

However, I also cannot see the difference between his game and that of say, Lin Gaoyuan or Lin Yun Ju, so for me his game is not unique.

Yeah. I can't see the difference between the music of Beethoven and the Music of Bach or Mozart. Nah I am just being facetious. One of my favorite movie pundits, John Campea, likes to stress that artistic appreciation is ultimately subjective. I have never looked at any of those 3 players you listed and felt they reminded me of each other in their best moments. They all take the ball early but look different to me. But I could be wrong. It's part of the excitement of being a fan that we debate these things and enjoy these sports.

But no I have never looked at Harimoto and felt he was a younger Lin Yun Ju or Lin Gaoyuan, because he does things differently and much better on the backhand side than either of those players and is not a lefty. But I will look closer since you suggested it. And i will still think that Harimoto is a genius regardless for the reasons i previously mentioned.

Baal · Jun 14, 2018

Fabian said:
Here Dima says that the "new balls" (right before WTTC 2017, so he means ABS because they already played with poly for years) take away some of the quality of the Chinese rubbers.

And quotes by Timo Boll from November 2017:

"Sie haben momentan große Probleme mit dem neuen Ball. Sie sagen es sogar selber"

"They have problems with the new ball. They even say that themselves"

"Da das Thema Material-Doping für mich immer noch nicht vom Tisch ist, ist es schön, dass durch die Verbesserung des Balls das Niveau endlich wieder angeglichen wird"

"Since the equipment-doping topic is still on the table it's nice that through the improvements of the ball the playing level gets equalized."

https://www.sport.de/news/ne2970257/boll-chinesen-leiden-unter-neuem-material/

Other side is missing. We don't know what CNT players are thinking about how ABS balls affect the effectiveness of shots from Dima or Timo. They probably would never reveal what they really think.

drunix80 · Jun 14, 2018

Based on the final alone here is my opinion - An injured ZJK ( of celluloid era) almost won against Harimoto ( he had matchpoint) If ZJK was in prime shape he would have easily won in irrespective of the ball. Harimoto is terrific but there are many ways future can shape up. It is also entirely possible CNT will completely dismantle his game just like Hirano amd struggle to win again against CNT. We had similar discussion when Hirano defeated everyone to become Asian Champ.

Japan Open 2018 - a beginning of the new trend?

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