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Well, it started after the WJTTC 2016. If you have time, read the debate on Mytt. LGL even made a video stating "the Table Tennis War b/w China and Japan has only just begun."
It's funny looking back on the comments over Harimoto's "blocking" game.
It's funny looking back on the comments over Harimoto's "blocking" game.
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The lack of forehand to forehand rallies in man's singles semifinals and final of Japan open is a worrying trend. If the new trend of taking the ball early of the bounce is real, then the days of long powerful forehand strokes might disappear. When I watched Harimoto vs. Lee Sangsu and ZJK vs. Harimoto, both games were predominantly backhand rallies. I was thinking to myself "how is this different from the women's game (besides the men's backhand rallies have more power)?" To me, this is a worrying trend. I hope the highest level of table tennis on both men's and women's sides are not played predominantly on backhand. To me, that would be kind of boring.
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I would argue that Harimoto is a prodigy, not a genius. A Genius is someone who brings something new to the table, which in my view Harimoto has not done yet.
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while it is true that the bounce of ABS is more similar to celluloid, the spin is even less, CA was closer in that aspect.
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Everyday is a mid-career day for a lot of players.
There are a lot of players of any age out there, but would such threads exist if there was no Harimoto?
Is he the only one to reveal a revolutionery change of styles due to ball change?
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I was amazed by Mima Ito more than Harimoto. I haven't watched her before (I know, shame) but some of her creativity was very impressive. The quality of her alternative shots "banana split", "strawberry" were so good that they fooled her opponent regularly. She played her game, not the Chinese game. Meaning when I look at the top, non-Chinese men, they all play 2 wing looping, attack with top spin first with very little creativity. Ito had me saying "wow". Her serve, which you could say is non-Chinese (I don't see many Chinese doing punch serve) was very effective too. I'm a fan of hers now. This type of play - thinking outside the box - is what it takes to beat the best imho.
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Interesting. How do you see the main differences between those balls?
i feel that CA does not bounce up like celluloid and ABS and that they break easily. I find their spin pretty good though. With ABS I fell that spin is a lot less and that’s not only my view but actually pretty much anyone I know and the articles I read.
I can’t play with CA because they have such a low bounce that I miss many many shots, never got used to it.
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Yes, but speed would be precisely one of the characteristics of the "new trend" ... taking the ball as early as possible thus leaving no time for the opponent.
I really liked your observation usualsuspect, the lack of fh to fh rallies and the predominant bh exchanges. I watched again highlights of ML vs TH and ZJK vs TH. Forehand to fh rallies, especially those away from the table were literally NON existent. It was even irritating for me when Tomo could play this dismissive flat hit against ZJK's fh top spin (2:2, 7:6) and it was a pattern basically. For this I went back to 2011 Wang Hao vs ML in Rotterdam. It was a career defining match for Ma Long. I think WH back then used the same strategy against ML as Harimoto did at JP Open - namely to pin Ma Long on the bh side with fast (possibly off the bounce) attacks and go down the line as soon as he tries to turn to the fh. Would Harimoto be able to do the same back then ... ? Notice how many fh to fh rallies that match had ...
Don't get me wrong, despite my analysis I think The Kid is a genius anyway ...
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I'm surprised anyone would doubt that a major equipment change opens a window for younger players to move up the ranks faster than they otherwise would have. Didn't someone once observe that chaos is a ladder? It takes nothing away from Harimoto's amazing results which under any circumstances would mark him as a once in a generation talent.
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We can debate that all we want to but in my opinion you are wrong on both fronts. His backhand action is unique as is his fast attack playing style. Moreover, prodigy and genius are often used interchangeably to describe gifted individuals.
So your opinion is yours, and I hate semantic debates but I respectfully 100% disagree.
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We should debate whether we can all get by with pushing the serve mostly and mostly winning, mostly.
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Spin and more spin.
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Otherwise, we could debate why the goon squad has been chasing down the east coast posse and the left cost posse too.
NL made some great posts in this thread.
And I completely agree with what Baal has said about the ball. And when ML won his second WTTC there were people talking about how the 40+ ball fit his style of play perfectly. LOL.
With the slower ball Harimoto kept catching ML's switching point. How many people have caught ML's switching that many times in one match? I can't think of anyone.
In this thread, read the posts by NL and Baal. Not sure much else needs reading.
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"Slower" - so also easier to hit early off the bounce, the effect, in terms of a time given to ML to react, might be the same.
Sorry guy's but I just don't believe, that the Kid could withstand more spin oriented and physically demanding game ... just don't.
... not sure, considering those dismissive flat hits of Harimoto's, you can still "spin everything" so easily ... ;-p
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Agree there. - Also the Women's game has the longer rallies, maybe not FZD's cannon balls
(Only thing to add: There are also some creative male players - take Koki Niwa, Simon Gauzy, Xu Xin)
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the new trend that I see is that Chinese players get more and more often beaten by other players
Get used to it
I think the MAIN factor actually is psychological. They were so dominant for so long, that their opponents either came to the court as losers or if they fought well, always ended up choking which resulted in many tight games ending in CNT favour.
That has changed. That situation was also due to an exceptional generation of players of the Chinese side. Of course they still have excellent players, but perhaps not as many players of the class of WLQ, WH, ML, ZJK, ML, XX and now FZD.
Get used to it
I think the MAIN factor actually is psychological. They were so dominant for so long, that their opponents either came to the court as losers or if they fought well, always ended up choking which resulted in many tight games ending in CNT favour.
That has changed. That situation was also due to an exceptional generation of players of the Chinese side. Of course they still have excellent players, but perhaps not as many players of the class of WLQ, WH, ML, ZJK, ML, XX and now FZD.
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That's exactly what I mean - Harimoto is the one in his generation and that has nothing to do with the ball.
I agree that generally a major equipment change opens a window for younger players to move up faster, but what I see in reality is more like a general evolution, rather than a revolution. There will always be Waldners, FZDs and Harimotos, who will go to the top under any circumstances, not because of the changes, but because of their talent. And now, if we didn't have Harimoto, there would be no question about how the new ball kills the older masters.
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My honest opinion about Japan open is that Harimoto simply played better than both Ma Long and ZJK. Harimoto had a clear game plan (attack every serve aggressively and go down the line as often as possible), and he executed it very well. Whereas Ma Long and ZJK didn't seem to have clear plans, or maybe they had plans but didn't execute well. Especially Ma Long, he kept using short serves and short touches even when these tactics are clearly failing to contain Harimoto.
I'm actually very surprised by ZJK's performance. I thought Liang Jingkun would've beaten him 4-1 in the semifinal, but ZJK won (it wasn't pretty, but he won). I thought Harimoto would've beaten him 4-0 or 4-1, but ZJK almost won that match despite being the clearly slower and more defensive player. To me, this seems like a miraculous recovery for someone who hasn't played for such a long time and is still adapting to tactics of the new ball.
I'm actually very surprised by ZJK's performance. I thought Liang Jingkun would've beaten him 4-1 in the semifinal, but ZJK won (it wasn't pretty, but he won). I thought Harimoto would've beaten him 4-0 or 4-1, but ZJK almost won that match despite being the clearly slower and more defensive player. To me, this seems like a miraculous recovery for someone who hasn't played for such a long time and is still adapting to tactics of the new ball.
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I agree with most if of what you wrote. ABS balls bounce higher -- actually the same height as celluloid, whereas CA balls bounced lower and inconsistently.
The problem comes from "feeling that the spin is less". That just doesn't cut it and a better way to put it is that you have the impression that your spin shots are less effective for some reason.
The fact is none of us really know what is going on and it is extraordinarily complex. Here are some possible explanations for your impression:
1. ABS balls actually do spin less than CA (in addition to bouncing higher).
2. The spin is the same but they interact differently with the air, causing a different arc and altering the timing.
3. Or the spin is the same and they interact differently with the table.
4. The spin is the same and they interact differently with the opponents blade.
5. The spin is the same but the higher bounce makes it easier for the opponent to deal with.
6. A combination of different aspects of the above.
7. Or you are simply wrong and if you did something quantitative you would find that your spin shots are just as effective, but maybe they are producing a somewhat different kind of error in your opponent that is less impressive.
All of the 40+ balls are heavier than they were with celluloid. So one expects that it is harder to get the same revs/sec, and the ball would be slower in the air, with a different trajectory, etc. etc.
It is so complicated of a situation that I don't really think anyone knows what is going on, not even LGL (recall that at a point he was using ABS balls as an excuse for CNT players losing at some point awhile back, but bear in mind he had a vested interest in finding an excuse, and so those comments need to be taken with a huge ton of salt).
The thing is though, CNT players are not all the same! I don't agree that their games are more "spin based" than other players or that you can generalize. ZJK, Ma Long, and FZD (not to mention Xu Xin and others) all have different aspects in the way they play. Timo Boll and Dima Ovtcharov are very markedly different in a lot of ways. There is no way I will believe that ABS balls will uniquely affect CNT players collectively more than Japanese or German players.
Why is Harimoto so good right now? Because speed always kills. Taking the ball early is a really good way to play if you can actually manage to do it.
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