USA developing new talent infrastructure

Loopadoop · Jun 16, 2018

Youth are being trained but at some point when they reach a certain level they quit participation.

At what level when kids reach a status of regular working adults does tt become too competitive for a hobby therefore they quit playing.

Generally speaking for players 2200-2400 and above ? We lose them to family life and more relaxing hobbies. We even lose a lot between 1800-2200.

How do we retain these hobby players Not pro ? The USA only has 8,000 plus registered.

Suga D · Jun 16, 2018

I think first of all you need to find opportunities where your upcoming players have an income so they can finance their outcome and still find enough time to practice, but these jobs (like working for TT associations, TT-companies, or TT-academies and schools for instance) are pretty rare.
So since these kinda jobs are so rare, you also gotta find other opportunities.
So at the same time TT generally should become more financially attractive.
Mainly talking about prize money here. But it's not only that.
Most players over here couldn't survive if it just was for the prize money.
In fact it's mainly the club salaries and sponsorships that makes the lion's share and keeps them going.
So having a financially wealthy club and league system should be one of your first goals.
If not in the states then do it like Lily Zhang did who will play as soon as the Indian Ultimate TT League is over for the German Club TTG Bingen/Münster-Sarmsheim.

But we're all in this together.
Players over here facing the same problems and even with all this infrastructure in their back still many kids stop playing TT when their done with school and start going to universities.

Loopadoop · Jun 16, 2018

I am talking more about hobby player retention than developing pro players which is a very small number.

ZhouZhekai · Jun 17, 2018

Something which has worked well in Texas is Texas Wesleyan University. For example Mark Hazinski made his degree in sports science there on a scholarship, and still players table tennis to this day at a high level(3-4 years ago he was in the USA Finals), and even coaches players fulltime. I think that the key to retaining any student athlete is a scholarship to a college(like in Basketball, and Football). So if lets say 15 year old(or 13 year old) players at 2300-2400 USATT can get a scholarship it is likely they will continue, especially given that Table Tennis is mainly a sport played at that high level at a young age who come from a backround of privilege, where they have enough resources for coaching, paddles and driving out of state for tourneys, and are more likely to place a emphasis on continuing education.

langel · Jun 17, 2018

Most of the US universities recruit a lot of athletes giving them scholarship even if they don't show good results in exams. I know a lot of examples of applicants with SAT 2300 and SAT II 3x800, who are rejected, but athletes with SAT 1800 and SAT II 2x600 get scholarship. Right now its modern and easy for Bulgarians to aply as tenisplayers. So if the universities start to recruit TT players, the sport will rise quickly. But to make the uni do this, the sport should be popular and well financed. How to make both - I don't know.

Tinykin · Jun 17, 2018

As Suga said, it is the same all over the TT world. I suspect that it is the same for most sports and activities. Young people take a break for social/education/professional reasons. Many return later in life if given the opportunity.
It's the 'opportunity' that's important.
In Europe it's the opportunity to play in local leagues.
In USA (I think!), it's the opportunity to play at a worthwhile club that's close to home.

Andy44 · Jun 17, 2018

ZhouZhekai said:
Something which has worked well in Texas is Texas Wesleyan University. For example Mark Hazinski made his degree in sports science there on a scholarship, and still players table tennis to this day at a high level(3-4 years ago he was in the USA Finals), and even coaches players fulltime. I think that the key to retaining any student athlete is a scholarship to a college(like in Basketball, and Football). So if lets say 15 year old(or 13 year old) players at 2300-2400 USATT can get a scholarship it is likely they will continue, especially given that Table Tennis is mainly a sport played at that high level at a young age who come from a backround of privilege, where they have enough resources for coaching, paddles and driving out of state for tourneys, and are more likely to place a emphasis on continuing education.

I think this is the most direct way to do it. The prospect of a university scholarship is more than enough incentive to keep kids and parents invested in the sport through the teenage years. All it would take is a few dozen scholarships available at good schools and I'd bet on the US having multiple top 50 players within a decade, and a sustainable pro league within a generation. One tech billionaire could probably finance the whole thing himself.

Loopadoop · Jun 17, 2018

How do you keep these college scholarship players to keep participating when they go into the regular workforce as adults ? That is when they should be playing for a hobby.

Andy44 · Jun 17, 2018

Loopadoop said:
How do you keep these college scholarship players to keep participating when they go into the regular workforce as adults ? That is when they should be playing for a hobby.

College players would get high level training and competition into their early twenties. More than long enough for the best of them to realize they have a reasonable chance to do well on the pro tour. Some would give it a few years to take their shot. Most would get real jobs, and if they're anything like typical ex-jocks they'll remain active fans of their sport, and many will keep playing as a hobby into middle age and beyond.

lightspin · Jun 17, 2018

Andy44 said:
I think this is the most direct way to do it. The prospect of a university scholarship is more than enough incentive to keep kids and parents invested in the sport through the teenage years. All it would take is a few dozen scholarships available at good schools and I'd bet on the US having multiple top 50 players within a decade, and a sustainable pro league within a generation. One tech billionaire could probably finance the whole thing himself.

I don't think college scholarships are the answer. Sure it would help increase the player base a bit, but to be a top 50 player you basically have to practice 40-50 hours a week over a very long time period.

I think two huge reasons the US loses junior players once they get older are money and time. You can't make any money playing and finding time to seriously practice is almost impossible.

When the parents are footing the bill, paying for practice partners and coaches isn't even a consideration for the player. Once they have to pay for everything on their own, combined with an entry level type job salary, they might want to spend their money elsewhere. Traveling to tournaments is very expensive and even if you are close to being a top level player, breaking even is hard. If you are a top level women and win the women's event, you are still losing money. Also at most clubs finding practice partners of a certain level is a nightmare. Many high level players are coaching and don't want to ever practice unless they get paid.

The time consideration is also killing off players. Once a kid gets older and has to work 40 hours a week, unless they absolutely love table tennis, they probably don't want to travel 1 hour one way to play a couple of hours then travel back home. Another consideration is who they will be playing for those 2 hours. Imagine you are a 2500 rated player who finds a 2300 player to practice with, but someone of a significantly lower level is always calling next on your table. You should be friendly and try to hit with everyone from time to time, but with limited time to play that scenario would get really old, really fast. Many clubs do not have enough table space to practice, so you are forced to play games. That is fun for many people. They are "just having a laugh" but if you were a top junior or someone who is a bit more serious about playing part of the fun is being serious.

Der_Echte · Jun 18, 2018

Loopadoop said:
How do you keep these college scholarship players to keep participating when they go into the regular workforce as adults ? That is when they should be playing for a hobby.

Company Cheerleaders Teams.

ZhouZhekai · Jun 18, 2018

My previous post was about keeping High School kids in the sport, which is where i believe most people who reach a level of 2200-2400 quit at 14-15(Start of high school in USA). However to keep players with jobs playing two things in my opinion need to happen which are practically impossible. 1) Clubs are a reasonable distance away. In Europe(or atleast Germany) they do a pretty good job, and when i lived in Frankfurt i had the ability to go to 3 clubs all with a reasonable return on investment for the travel time. However the US is simply to huge. 2. Have a Team system. Having a team allows for a social aspect to table tennis, which generally is a very unsocial sport. Playing in a team means that one a) has a goal, be it to stay in the current playing level, or to advance, and b) one plays for team mates. Again impossible in the USA because distance. So i believe that the only way one can keep high level players playing is Scholarships.

Ilia Minkin · Jun 18, 2018

ZhouZhekai said:
Having a team allows for a social aspect to table tennis, which generally is a very unsocial sport.

Yeah, it is very ironic that to play table tennis you need a partner, yet the sport is quite... unsocial. I'd even say antisocial at times.

Andy44 · Jun 18, 2018

lightspin said:
I don't think college scholarships are the answer. Sure it would help increase the player base a bit, but to be a top 50 player you basically have to practice 40-50 hours a week over a very long time period.

I think two huge reasons the US loses junior players once they get older are money and time. You can't make any money playing and finding time to seriously practice is almost impossible.

When the parents are footing the bill, paying for practice partners and coaches isn't even a consideration for the player. Once they have to pay for everything on their own, combined with an entry level type job salary, they might want to spend their money elsewhere. Traveling to tournaments is very expensive and even if you are close to being a top level player, breaking even is hard. If you are a top level women and win the women's event, you are still losing money. Also at most clubs finding practice partners of a certain level is a nightmare. Many high level players are coaching and don't want to ever practice unless they get paid.

The time consideration is also killing off players. Once a kid gets older and has to work 40 hours a week, unless they absolutely love table tennis, they probably don't want to travel 1 hour one way to play a couple of hours then travel back home. Another consideration is who they will be playing for those 2 hours. Imagine you are a 2500 rated player who finds a 2300 player to practice with, but someone of a significantly lower level is always calling next on your table. You should be friendly and try to hit with everyone from time to time, but with limited time to play that scenario would get really old, really fast. Many clubs do not have enough table space to practice, so you are forced to play games. That is fun for many people. They are "just having a laugh" but if you were a top junior or someone who is a bit more serious about playing part of the fun is being serious.

Money and time are exactly what scholarships give players. Money: a free ride at a top US university can be worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. Time: an incentive for kids and their parents to compete for all that scholarship money up to age 18, followed by 4 more years of (free, fully supported by the university) high level training and competition for the best players.

If we're losing 2300-2400 level 15 year olds because they and their parents see only diminishing returns from continuing with the sport, then scholarships will give them an excellent reason to continue for another 7 years. Along the way some of those 2400 players will become 2700 level players, and some of the 2700 level players will become pro players. Most of them will end up as enthusiastic high level amateurs who will form the foundation for the next generation of players.

Loopadoop · Jun 18, 2018

Why don't players just play for fun and exercise as a hobby instead of quitting a sport in which they have good skills ?

Ilia Minkin · Jun 18, 2018

Loopadoop said:
Why don't players just play for fun and exercise as a hobby instead of quitting a sport in which they have good skills ?

If one goes on a pro track and practices a lot, it may actually cause a burnout and make person disgust the sport, despite being quite skillful in it. One of my best friends does not play, although he has all the techniques to be at least 1800, all because he did it "too much" as a teenager. Practicing seriously comes with pressure of expectations. Make this team, make that team, take that title and so on. Handling it is a very delicate matter for athletes/coaches/parents, and it can easily break people. I also think that some people find it embarrassing to compete as amateurs after playing at a reasonably high level. Some people probably think that their former teammates will view them as "losers". Many subtle things.

langel · Jun 18, 2018

Loopadoop said:
How do you keep these college scholarship players to keep participating when they go into the regular workforce as adults ? That is when they should be playing for a hobby.

Andy44 gave some good aspects of the answer.
The hobby depends a lot on popularity and personal addiction, availability of infrastructure to practice it, enough time for it and reasonable cost.
Scholarships will make the sport more popular and more players will become more addicted. A rise of popularity will make sense in opening more training places. More training places with more players means more affordable cost. Then an addicted hobby player should find time only.
The most important is to start with financing the popularity and building addicted players. You can't start just with opening more playing centres, as they will remain empty.

Loopadoop · Jun 18, 2018

People need to think of it as a form of exercise and aerobics 1-3 times a week. It is more fun than walking or jogging. That is how most Asian players I know approach the sport.

As for tournament play in the USA, too many players avoid because of the match rating system.

langel · Jun 18, 2018

One can do exercises, aerobics and jogging, cycling, skating, swimming etc. on his own and for most one need no special place and equipment. For TT you need tables, place to put the tables, and everyone needs another one to play with.

Ilia Minkin · Jun 18, 2018

langel said:
One can do exercises, aerobics and jogging, cycling, skating, swimming etc. on his own and for most one need no special place and equipment. For TT you need tables, place to put the tables, and everyone needs another one to play with.

Yes, and before TT becomes a physically demanding exercise, one has to reach a reasonable technical level. Which is not easy as a learning adult and may be quite costly.

USA developing new talent infrastructure

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