Allwood = outdated?

romanzdk · Aug 10, 2018

I was wondering if Allwood blades are now “outdated” with the use of new plastic balls as the allwood tend to have less speed and power for this ball.

Can some modern Allwoods can compete with carbons? Like Stiga Emerald, Rosewood..?

Is this true? Does carbon blades perform better with the new ball? Should we all use carbon blades? Or allwood could still outperform carbon ones?

Looking forward reading your opinions.

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tropical · Aug 10, 2018

I still use "allwood" for any types of balls.

perham · Aug 10, 2018

In short, no.

Most table tennis is played by amateurs, which have absolutely no problem with a bit slower blade. Hell, I'm thinking that custom bats are not even the most sold bats in the global market.

As for professionals, they would always get the bats that compliments their style. And some still use all wood blades.

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Shifu · Aug 10, 2018

For professionals pretty much yes. Even Xu Xin plays with Carbon now. For the rest of of us no, all wood is still fine.

langel · Aug 10, 2018

romanzdk said:
Does carbon blades perform better with the new ball? Should we all use carbon blades? Or allwood could still outperform carbon ones?

"better" is a comparative category. But "comparative" does not mean that you can make a general evaluation comparing blade build structure only. Evaluation should be made for every different aspect of style and play, indiviual characteristics, level of play, rubers characteristics etc.
Formula1 does not kill Nisan Micra.

UpSideDownCarl · Aug 10, 2018

For someone who is developing technique, someone who is mid-level or lower, all wood is still better for helping someone learn the touch and contact for spinning the ball. Why? Carbon deadens certain vibrations and makes it harder to feel the quality of your contact. Carbon makes poor contact feel better and makes it harder to feel the difference between good contact and not so good contact. Also, the carbon helps make the shot you get on poor contact seem better than it was.

With an all wood blade, bad contact feels bad. Good contact feels really good. Without you even realizing this is happening, your nervous system learns by reward and punishment, how to improve your contact and therefore, how to generate more spin and pace. Whereas, with a carbon blade you just won't realize, for a lot longer, when contact is not as good. And since a large part of improved technical skills come from learning how to use less effort and get more power and spin from timing and contact (which are not entirely separated issues) [and this also relates to the ability to use the topsheet and sponge's rebound to your mechanical advantage by how and how much you cause the topsheet to grab the ball and how you cause the ball to sink into the sponge and how deep you let it sink in without banging into the wood] I would say, for a large percentage of amateur players, an all wood blade would likely be an intelligent choice.

So, if you can generate pace and spin like the pros, you probably wouldn't benefit from an all wood blade. But, if you feel you might improve by becoming able to get more spin without losing speed, likely, an all wood blade is still a good choice.

yoass · Aug 10, 2018

Fabian said:
For professionals pretty much yes. Even Xu Xin plays with Carbon now. For the rest of of us no, all wood is still fine.

"Pretty much" still leaves out a substantial number of pro players. Off the top of my head: Gauzy, Samsonov, and didn't Shibaev also use an all-wood, albeit a 7-ply one?

Shifu · Aug 10, 2018

That’s why I did not write “everyone”. It’s probably around 80/90% of the pros who play with a composite blade nowadays.

Ioiettino · Aug 10, 2018

UpSideDownCarl said:
For someone who is developing technique, someone who is mid-level or lower, all wood is still better for helping someone learn the touch and contact for spinning the ball. Why? Carbon deadens certain vibrations and makes it harder to feel the quality of your contact. Carbon makes poor contact feel better and makes it harder to feel the difference between good contact and not so good contact. Also, the carbon helps make the shot you get on poor contact seem better than it was.

With an all wood blade, bad contact feels bad. Good contact feels really good. Without you even realizing this is happening, your nervous system learns by reward and punishment, how to improve your contact and therefore, how to generate more spin and pace. Whereas, with a carbon blade you just won't realize, for a lot longer, when contact is not as good. And since a large part of improved technical skills come from learning how to use less effort and get more power and spin from timing and contact (which are not entirely separated issues) [and this also relates to the ability to use the topsheet and sponge's rebound to your mechanical advantage by how and how much you cause the topsheet to grab the ball and how you cause the ball to sink into the sponge and how deep you let it sink in without banging into the wood] I would say, for a large percentage of amateur players, an all wood blade would likely be an intelligent choice.

So, if you can generate pace and spin like the pros, you probably wouldn't benefit from an all wood blade. But, if you feel you might improve by becoming able to get more spin without losing speed, likely, an all wood blade is still a good choice.

We should paste this post on TTD's front-page, this is so undervalued in general while it should be the first thing people care about. Nice wording USDC, thanks.

watcher · Aug 10, 2018

I am on board the 7-ply all wood train. I still like wood

UpSideDownCarl · Aug 10, 2018

Ioiettino said:
We should paste this post on TTD's front-page, this is so undervalued in general while it should be the first thing people care about. Nice wording USDC, thanks.

Every so often I do have to chime in about something other than the goon squad.

ttmonster · Aug 10, 2018

After NextLevel stopped participating as much as he used to , I feel the level of these kind of discussions have generally gone down in TTD .. IMHO ...

UpSideDownCarl said:
Every so often I do have to chime in about something other than the goon squad.

Der_Echte · Aug 11, 2018

Anyone wanting to see an all wood blade do sum serious damage to the field (and see the Goon Squad in action) ought to come to Sacramento Open this Saturday. Team Trouble Makes led by all wood, all-out assault setups.

perham · Aug 11, 2018

Der_Echte said:
Anyone wanting to see an all wood blade do sum serious damage to the field (and see the Goon Squad in action) ought to come to Sacramento Open this Saturday. Team Trouble Makes led by all wood, all-out assault setups.

You should record and post some games for future generations. [emoji16]

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jawien · Aug 11, 2018

watcher said:
I am on board the 7-ply all wood train. I still like wood

Yeah, intersting why pros choose the composite blades instead of 7-ply all wood? Speed should be the same.

SFF_lib · Aug 11, 2018

No. No and No.

My very old Primorac with black tag has the most amazing flex yet, the kick is strong enough. I can power loop against someone using Butterfly ZJK ALC and H8 as FH.

I am still using single-ply hinoki which is as fast as ALC blades but with more feel.

All wood will live among the amateurs for sure. For Pro? Hopefully more choppers will rise to the top as they are the last defender of all wood.

perham · Aug 11, 2018

jawien said:
Yeah, intersting why pros choose the composite blades instead of 7-ply all wood? Speed should be the same.

I think it's the size of sweet spot and the level of stiffness in addition of the speed that encourages a lot of players. Also, the feel (and sound, etc.) is kinda different, and if you started with a composite blade, the all-wood ones just feel different to you. I think it comes down to personal preference more rather than objective differences.

jawien · Aug 11, 2018

perham said:
I think it's the size of sweet spot and the level of stiffness in addition of the speed that encourages a lot of players. Also, the feel (and sound, etc.) is kinda different, and if you started with a composite blade, the all-wood ones just feel different to you. I think it comes down to personal preference more rather than objective differences.

Got used to composits myself and as long as they are not too reactive like i.e. TB ALC is, I do prefer them. H301 is bought recently is quite all right even for amateurs like myself. I never owned 7-ply actually, when I tried them in the celluloid era they seem to fast and too stiff.
The sweep spot you mentioned plays I vital role here I think.

perham · Aug 11, 2018

jawien said:
Got used to composits myself and as long as they are not too reactive like i.e. TB ALC is, I do prefer them. H301 is bought recently is quite all right even for amateurs like myself. I never owned 7-ply actually, when I tried them in the celluloid era they seem to fast and too stiff.
The sweep spot you mentioned plays I vital role here I think.

To be fair, I'm not even sure that Composite vs. All-wood is a good way to categorize behavior of the blade at all (except maybe for the top of the line OFF and OFF+ blades). It seems that for every composite blade in that is not in OFF or OFF+ there's a very similar all-wood alternative and vice versa. Particularly, I played with Tibhar Samsonov Pure Wood recently and I can say it's one of the best looping blades I've played with, and has a very large sweet spot for an all-wood blade. Now I would never exchange my Hypertouch for that blade, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of the play. I just "like" Hypertouch more. Maybe it's because Hypertouch has green AND red in its handle, but I guess we'll never know!

jawien · Aug 11, 2018

perham said:
To be fair, I'm not even sure that Composite vs. All-wood is a good way to categorize behavior of the blade at all (except maybe for the top of the line OFF and OFF+ blades). It seems that for every composite blade in that is not in OFF or OFF+ there's a very similar all-wood alternative and vice versa. Particularly, I played with Tibhar Samsonov Pure Wood recently and I can say it's one of the best looping blades I've played with, and has a very large sweet spot for an all-wood blade. Now I would never exchange my Hypertouch for that blade, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of the play. I just "like" Hypertouch more. Maybe it's because Hypertouch has green AND red in its handle, but I guess we'll never know!

It is the "feeling" factor for sure that has the final word when all other params are in tune. The problem is that when we talk about the ABS's, it seems there is no going back to the all+ blades, not even off- considering the pros. Truls Moregard which I'm having an extreme pleasure watching him play, has basically an all+ game and uses, I belive Carbonado 290! which Stiga describes as the off+ (european scale) type blade ... craaaa..zy ; )

Allwood = outdated?

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