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  1. Sam Alender is offline
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    #1

    Struggling with Hurricane 3 and topspin

    I am 2 years in to developing my table tennis abilities and am going to be competing in my first tournament this November. I have been using promarially euro rubbers (last 8 months using Sriver) and recently tried H3 because I wanted something with a bit more speed. I was ignorant and was not aware at the time that H3 required more arm speed while brushing the ball to actually produce the desired speed. I am struggling with this adjustment as I tend to still want to hit the ball rather than the desired brushing technique. So my question is should I transition back to a softer sponge euro rubber or should I just deal with the H3, adjust to it, and go from there?

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    #2
    Stay with H3 if you want to develop a topspin based game. H3 is extremely linear so you will need to either hit with a lot of force or brush the ball if you it to be fast. Boosting will make it a bit faster.

    Buy a tensor rubber if you're more into driving or flat hitting.

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    #3
    Switch back.

    I’ve never seen you play, but I play at a decent level in the UK, and there aren’t many people who have the footwork to play consistently well with H3.

    There will be a big transition from Euro to H3, so if you do want to stick with it, you’ll need to give it more time.

    But I struggle to see how H3 will improve your game (it’s also pretty slow unless boosted, and you have a fast technique).

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    #4
    What would you recommend as a good rubber then for my FH? I have been looking at Butterfly Rozena, XIOM Vega Pro, and Stiga Calibra Tour M. Are these good ideas?

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    #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Alender
    I am 2 years in to developing my table tennis abilities and am going to be competing in my first tournament this November. I have been using promarially euro rubbers (last 8 months using Sriver) and recently tried H3 because I wanted something with a bit more speed. I was ignorant and was not aware at the time that H3 required more arm speed while brushing the ball to actually produce the desired speed. I am struggling with this adjustment as I tend to still want to hit the ball rather than the desired brushing technique. So my question is should I transition back to a softer sponge euro rubber or should I just deal with the H3, adjust to it, and go from there?
    Well, let me put it like this.
    If you just want to play around and have fun then there might be rubbers that are easier to handle, but if you want to become better then H3N is the way to go.
    Since it doesn´t allow making top quality shots when one is out of position it kinda forces you to work on footwork, touch etc. I´ve switched 3 years ago to H3N and haven´t regretted a split second.
    No offense, but taking advice from someone with little to no experience of this rubber doesn´t make a lot sense IMHO.
    Maybe others that have used this rubber can chime in too.

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  6. NDH is offline
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    #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Suga D
    Well, let me put it like this.
    If you just want to play around and have fun then there might be rubbers that are easier to handle, but if you want to become better then H3N is the way to go.
    Since it doesn´t allow making top quality shots when one is out of position it kinda forces you to work on footwork, touch etc. I´ve switched 3 years ago to H3N and haven´t regretted a split second.
    No offense, but taking advice from someone with little to no experience of this rubber doesn´t make a lot sense IMHO.
    Maybe others that have used this rubber can chime in too.
    I disagree with this.

    By your theory, all the top players would be using H3N (I know the arguments that once they get to the top, they can't change etc etc).

    People talk about the technique required, and sure, if @sam alender wants to play like Ma Long, then he should stick with H3, and practice like crazy.

    But when you imply that "if you want to become better H3N is the way to go", just seems like a poor statement to make to a player learning the ropes.

    This whole misconception of "if you have poor footwork, use Tenergy" or whatever, is ridiculous.

    You still need to have good footwork to play at a high level - Yes, H3 requires more of it, and requires a different technique altogether, but that's all it is - Different.

    It's great that H3N has worked for you - But I would guess that there are more players it doesn't work for, than it does.

    I see these kids trying to get to grips with H3, after being coached in Europe, playing with European rubbers, and everything is wrong.

    So yeah, play with H3 if you want to base your entire game on how the Chinese play - But please be mindful and aware of your own ability/technique, and don't just buy H3 because "Ma Long uses it".

    As for the rubber options, if you have a chance to try them, do so - You will likely see very little difference (depending on your ability).

    You can't go wrong with most of the ESN based rubbers IMO.

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    @NDH .. I don't think SugaD is saying that everybody should play with Hurricane 3 Neo , I think what he is saying is if you want to improve your game H3N is a very good tool to have .. .I can identify with his view .. and I can understand where you are coming from ..

    I was taught to play with ZJK and Tenergies on both sides and I was doing perfectly fine .. but then I stopped training and after sometime decided to try H8 and then subsequently H3 .. both of them boosted with Falco ( which is not the most optimal booster for H3s ) ... and I have to say it improved my game ...

    The question is why did it improve :

    1. For sure to get the advantage of H3 you have to be in position ... so it forces you to use proper footwork .. you cannot get a quality shot only with the forearm snap , which Tenergy allows for sure ..

    2. H3 gives you more options on the short game , simply because you can decide how much of the sponge to engage and the tackiness lets you control the ball more if you play with soft hands

    3. H3 lets you feel the ball more because its less bouncy ...

    So , after a couple of years when I finally went back to Tenergy and Viscaria , my previous coaches were like your game has really improved ...

    Now how do you objectively find out what caused the improvement ... it could simply be the experience too ...
    but what I have found with every realistic change I have made with my equipment it has only improved my game ... what I believe happens is that your technique becomes more flexible to account for the vagaries of the equipment ...


    So now the question is do I recommend H3 to the OP , no I don't considering he is going into a tournament.

    Do I recommend him to try it out , definitely , but I would encourage him to be patient for at least 6 months to see if he can really adapt to it. .Some people can , some people can't ... depends on the basics and the fitness level ...

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    #8
    Maybe try Nittaku fastarc g1. It's an older generation tensor but really playable and good for both spin and speed. The best-selling rubber in Japan, supposedly. There is a review of it (and the whole fastarc series) on the tabletennis11.com website.

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    #9
    Quote Originally Posted by NDH
    I disagree with this.

    By your theory, all the top players would be using H3N (I know the arguments that once they get to the top, they can't change etc etc).

    People talk about the technique required, and sure, if @sam alender wants to play like Ma Long, then he should stick with H3, and practice like crazy.

    But when you imply that "if you want to become better H3N is the way to go", just seems like a poor statement to make to a player learning the ropes.

    This whole misconception of "if you have poor footwork, use Tenergy" or whatever, is ridiculous.

    You still need to have good footwork to play at a high level - Yes, H3 requires more of it, and requires a different technique altogether, but that's all it is - Different.

    It's great that H3N has worked for you - But I would guess that there are more players it doesn't work for, than it does.

    I see these kids trying to get to grips with H3, after being coached in Europe, playing with European rubbers, and everything is wrong.

    So yeah, play with H3 if you want to base your entire game on how the Chinese play - But please be mindful and aware of your own ability/technique, and don't just buy H3 because "Ma Long uses it".

    As for the rubber options, if you have a chance to try them, do so - You will likely see very little difference (depending on your ability).

    You can't go wrong with most of the ESN based rubbers IMO.
    cmonBruh, dont you know what top Chinese and Korean players use? they all use H3.
    Japanese women team also use H3: Ishikawa Kasumi, Mima Ito, Miu Hirano.
    Timo Boll/Dima (I forgot which one) said on an interview that chinese rubbers are spinnier.
    Tenergy, although is powerful enough for top tier level play, is proven to be inferior to CNT's H3 rubber.

    I agree, "if you have poor footwork, use Tenergy" is not a valid concept, but it's not totally wrong either. Tensor rubbers are more forgiving because of the catapult effect, while H3 requires you to work with your own power to generate the result (less forgiving).

    (Proof: Last year/2 years ago when ZJK is still injured, he entered a tourney with T05 on his forehand, on an interview he said my technique is not enough to use H3)

    That's why if you want to build correct footwork and technique, H3 is the way to go.
    And once you have correct footwork and technique, boosted H3N will provide u with better quality shots.

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  10. NDH is offline
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    #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Hamasaki_Fanz
    cmonBruh, dont you know what top Chinese and Korean players use? they all use H3.
    Japanese women team also use H3: Ishikawa Kasumi, Mima Ito, Miu Hirano.
    Timo Boll/Dima (I forgot which one) said on an interview that chinese rubbers are spinnier.
    Tenergy, although is powerful enough for top tier level play, is proven to be inferior to CNT's H3 rubber.

    I agree, "if you have poor footwork, use Tenergy" is not a valid concept, but it's not totally wrong either. Tensor rubbers are more forgiving because of the catapult effect, while H3 requires you to work with your own power to generate the result (less forgiving).

    (Proof: Last year/2 years ago when ZJK is still injured, he entered a tourney with T05 on his forehand, on an interview he said my technique is not enough to use H3)

    That's why if you want to build correct footwork and technique, H3 is the way to go.
    And once you have correct footwork and technique, boosted H3N will provide u with better quality shots.
    I don’t know what level you play at, so it’s hard to gauge your opinion.

    I’ll try and clarify my point previously, without just repeating myself.

    I play at the highest league level in the UK - I can count on one hand, the number of people that use H3.

    If Dima/Timo think it’s better, why don’t they use it?

    Dima trialed it last year, but ultimately ended up not using it. Either because it was too much of a technique change, or because he didn’t have access to the “Pro level” H3. Either way, he chose not to use it, and if it’s the best rubber there is, and accessible to everyone, you would imagine he’d be using it right now (as would every other player).

    The harsh reality is, most people are never going to have the footwork and technique to get the most out of H3 - Especially when the version we can buy, is not the same as the ones that the Chinese use.

    Sure, sticking on a sheet of H3 will make you move more (because you have to), but so will any slowish Chinese or Euro rubber.

    So like I said, unless you absolutely want to replicate the Chinese National Team in equipment and technique, there is very little point in using H3.

    This myth that using H3 will improve certain aspects of your game is damaging to juniors who want to replicate their idols, yet are taught more like the Europeans, or simply don’t have the training to play in a “Chinese full body” fashion.

    So as far as the OP is concerned, there is no advantage in using H3 (but if he gets the chance, I’d still recommend he tries it).

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    #11
    Quote Originally Posted by ttmonster
    @NDH .. I don't think SugaD is saying that everybody should play with Hurricane 3 Neo , I think what he is saying is if you want to improve your game H3N is a very good tool to have .. .I can identify with his view .. and I can understand where you are coming from .. I was taught to play with ZJK and Tenergies on both sides and I was doing perfectly fine .. but then I stopped training and after sometime decided to try H8 and then subsequently H3 .. both of them boosted with Falco ( which is not the most optimal booster for H3s ) ... and I have to say it improved my game ... The question is why did it improve : 1. For sure to get the advantage of H3 you have to be in position ... so it forces you to use proper footwork .. you cannot get a quality shot only with the forearm snap , which Tenergy allows for sure ..2. H3 gives you more options on the short game , simply because you can decide how much of the sponge to engage and the tackiness lets you control the ball more if you play with soft hands 3. H3 lets you feel the ball more because its less bouncy ... So , after a couple of years when I finally went back to Tenergy and Viscaria , my previous coaches were like your game has really improved ... Now how do you objectively find out what caused the improvement ... it could simply be the experience too ... but what I have found with every realistic change I have made with my equipment it has only improved my game ... what I believe happens is that your technique becomes more flexible to account for the vagaries of the equipment ... So now the question is do I recommend H3 to the OP , no I don't considering he is going into a tournament.Do I recommend him to try it out , definitely , but I would encourage him to be patient for at least 6 months to see if he can really adapt to it. .Some people can , some people can't ... depends on the basics and the fitness level ...
    Thanks ttmonster.

    Exactly, you've worded it much better than i've ever could and added a few very important things.
    Especially the parts with being patient and maybe not changing before an important competition.

    Thanks again.

    Quote Originally Posted by NDH
    I disagree with this.By your theory, all the top players would be using H3N (I know the arguments that once they get to the top, they can't change etc etc).People talk about the technique required, and sure, if @sam alender wants to play like Ma Long, then he should stick with H3, and practice like crazy.But when you imply that "if you want to become better H3N is the way to go", just seems like a poor statement to make to a player learning the ropes.This whole misconception of "if you have poor footwork, use Tenergy" or whatever, is ridiculous.You still need to have good footwork to play at a high level - Yes, H3 requires more of it, and requires a different technique altogether, but that's all it is - Different.It's great that H3N has worked for you - But I would guess that there are more players it doesn't work for, than it does.I see these kids trying to get to grips with H3, after being coached in Europe, playing with European rubbers, and everything is wrong.So yeah, play with H3 if you want to base your entire game on how the Chinese play - But please be mindful and aware of your own ability/technique, and don't just buy H3 because "Ma Long uses it".As for the rubber options, if you have a chance to try them, do so - You will likely see very little difference (depending on your ability).You can't go wrong with most of the ESN based rubbers IMO.
    Even though I think monster already responded to this very precisely i would like to add a point or three.

    First of all, i think you're generalizing a bit and oversimplifying too, or are you trying to say ZJK's playstyle is exactly like Ma Long's or Xu Xin's or even Ma Te's. That just doesn't make a lot sense to me. In fact i find ZJK's style which is very far from Wang Liqin's style for instance not what most people in europe would consider typically chinese style.
    You probably wouldn't believe it but there are more players than Ma Long that use H3N, even non-CNT. Hamazaki Fanz listed a few.

    I also would like to point out something that ttmonster has written. One has to be patient enough and see after a while if it works for one or not.
    This might be news for you and maybe not easy to imagine, but some people've got the ability to adapt.

    And lastly even though you've made a few points that seem to make sense i would like to say, that even if you might or might not be a better player than me (who knows - who carez?) you're makin' your points based on observations and assumptions but close to ZERO experience.
    That's like me jumping randomly on a thread about LP or Antispin rubbers. That would be just absurd and even to a degree a bit silly.

    I understand that being confident is important to play TT, but being over confident often leads to a dead end street.

    No offence, but i've heard these kind of arguments already since i've started playing more than thirty years ago and used DHS PF 4 (the original, not the new one) and basically it's just the same old same old. You see, this here where I´m at is the Land of ESN, and as you can imagine there are a lot of sponsored coaches, sponsored players and other sock-puppets, so you probably can imagine i've heard these things before and basically have it up to here.

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    Last edited by Suga D; 08-16-2018 at 05:10 PM.
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    #12
    I always tell people. If they want to use Chinese rubbers, they have to learn how to brush the ball properly to maximize their use. They need to change the way they contact the ball.

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    Haha - I won't quote the comment, cause it would be too long - But I do appreciate the Octopus at the end! lol.

    I am absolutely generalising about "CNT play style" - I can't possibly go into the specifics one each individual play style of the players themselves.

    Although the "general" play style of the Chinese, vs the Europeans is evident for all to see (full body/arm swings, vs more compact swings etc) - I know that isn't news to you, so I won't carry on the comparisons.

    I have used H3 - Not for months on end, but I have played with it, and I am basing my experience on that, and that of other top end players in the UK.

    If you are good enough, and you give it 6 months, you can make any rubber work for you.

    But do I think H3 is the best option for someone coming through the ranks and still learning? Well.... No, but it depends on how they want to play, how much time they are going to put in, and if they have a coach or not.

    I see too many people on these forums who buy the same stuff as the CNT, play at a low level, yet advise others to buy the same thing.

    I'll repeat the question I've asked a few times.

    If H3 is really that good, outside of the Chinese (and a few Japanese/other players), why do the large MAJORITY of top players use Tensor rubbers?

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    #14
    Quote Originally Posted by NDH
    If H3 is really that good, outside of the Chinese (and a few Japanese/other players), why do the large MAJORITY of top players use Tensor rubbers?
    Sponships combined with H3N (blue sponge) not being readily available outside of China?

    Unsure of how it works in the UK but in Sweden most serious clubs are associated with a supplier. The two major clubs in Stockholm have got deals with Donic and Butterfly. Why would they go and buy a DHS product if they can get their gear pretty much for free from the sponsor?

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    #15
    Quote Originally Posted by mart1nandersson
    Sponships combined with H3N (blue sponge) not being readily available outside of China?

    Unsure of how it works in the UK but in Sweden most serious clubs are associated with a supplier. The two major clubs in Stockholm have got deals with Donic and Butterfly. Why would they go and buy a DHS product if they can get their gear pretty much for free from the sponsor?
    I think that will be the case for top top clubs and the very few top level players - But outside of that, it's open season on what people buy.

    But my point still stands - People at the top don't use H3 - They use H3N, which as far as we are aware, is significantly different, and incredibly hard to get hold of (legit versions).

    So why would people recommend a sub standard rubber as if it was what the pro's use?

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    Most high level players would prefer to use national version DHS products but they are simply not capable of aquiring the rubber. Numerous top players have stated that in interviews as well (Dima, Freitas).
    I don't really think this matters because most people miss the point imo. Chinese rubbers require a different style and a lot more athleticism than most European players have and in addition to this you also need to have a coach that can teach you this style. I know of 1 top 40 player in England that plays with Hurricane and even he doesn't exactly play with a bog standard version (I've played with it and its nothing like the stuff any of us could buy). His FH technique is very different to anything you'd get tought by a coach that doesnt use Chinese rubbers and therefore I for example wouldn't be able to make full use of the rubber. I guess what im trying to say is that its best to get the equipment for the technique that you'll be coached for.

    I do however see the benefit of playing with a chinese rubber raquet every now and then to train things like touch and loops as it doesnt have the catapult to disguise your mistakes. This way you can get a feeling for what the shot should be and then just swap back to your main bat and make the adjustments and see your shot improve.

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    #17
    Anyhow, since OP seems to be already playing with H3 for some time i would rather recommend switching to H3N than to any Tensor except maybe Golden Tango or Vega China.
    The biggest difference IMHO between H3 and H3N is that one was designed for speedglue the other one for oilbased Booster. I also don´t think there is a major difference in characteristics between a National Version from a legit source and the rubber used by the english top40 player EvilOctopus wrote about. I´m tending to believe that it´s mostly the used booster.
    That was the difference i felt when a German top player (who also reached Top50-60 WRL) let me use his racket for a minute
    Since Keini is also member of this forum i would love seeing him deflate a couple of egos

    Nah, in all seriousity, it would be great if he would chime in to say a word or two.
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    #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Suga D
    I´m tending to believe that it´s mostly the used booster.
    That was the difference i felt when a German top player (who also reached Top50-60 WRL) let me use his racket for a minute
    Since Keini (Thomas Keinath) is also member of this forum i would love seeing him deflate a couple of egos

    Nah, in all seriousity, it would be great if he would chime in to say a word or two.
    I'm not sure having someone whose reached the top of their game (Top 50-60 WRL) is going to make any difference. It'll only re enforce what has already been said.

    The OP wanted advice due to the tournament he has coming up in November.

    He's stated that he has struggled (from the sounds of it..... a lot), with the H3 he tried (thinking it would be quicker because ya know....... It's H3).

    How anyone can advise to stick with it is beyond me. If his main goal right now is this tournament in November, go back to playing with something very similar to Sriver - Heck..... Keep playing with Sriver if you are doing OK.

    If you want to try H3, and change your technique, then do so - But give yourself a year or two, and find the right coach!

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    #19
    Quote Originally Posted by NDH
    I'm not sure having someone whose reached the top of their game (Top 50-60 WRL) is going to make any difference. It'll only re enforce what has already been said.

    The OP wanted advice due to the tournament he has coming up in November.

    He's stated that he has struggled (from the sounds of it..... a lot), with the H3 he tried (thinking it would be quicker because ya know....... It's H3).

    How anyone can advise to stick with it is beyond me. If his main goal right now is this tournament in November, go back to playing with something very similar to Sriver - Heck..... Keep playing with Sriver if you are doing OK.

    If you want to try H3, and change your technique, then do so - But give yourself a year or two, and find the right coach!
    I think it depends how "lately" is defined. If he already has adapted (depending on how often he practices) to the H3 it might be smarter to stick to it, if not then i would have to agree with you and he should better stick to his Sriver.
    But to me it sounded as if he didn´t swich yesterday, hence my comments.
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    BH: RED RUBBER

    Nyabinghi


    Backspin for Backspin even while I'm rappin' (Lord Doitall - Lords of the Underground)

  20. Der_Echte is offline
    says Grand Consultant to the Office of the Goon Squad
     
    Master TTD Member 11,140 10,944
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    Der_Echte is offline
    says Grand Consultant to the Office of the Goon Squad
     
    Master TTD Member 10,944 11,140

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    #20
    Send in the GOON SQUAD to collect and confiscate all the unauthorized H3 robbers!!

    I think OP could be fine with any modern rubber given time and training... but given what OP has said, Vega Pro will be a great balance.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
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