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    #401

    Glue fight: Hide vs. PU

    There is a lot of talk about hide glue and the great feeling it provides. I’m always skeptical of this kind of claims so I decided to test this myself by building two exact blades, with the only variable being the glue used. First I will give a brief description of these two glues:
    Hide Glue: This is an animal protein based glue, which is water soluble. Because of this it is vastly used in instrument building and repair. The ease of reversibility allows luthiers to perform repairs without damaging the instrument by simply injecting moisture into the joint. The glue doesn’t penetrate the wood, instead it forms a layer over the material and bonds to it. This glue is hard to work with because it has to be applied while still hot. Because of this it has a very short open time, and if the layers aren’t clamped within this time frame a poor bond can be formed.
    PU Glue: Polyurethane glue is a polymer based adhesive with great strength. It is waterproof once cured and it penetrates the pores of the wood forming a great bond. It is easier to work with because it has a relatively high open time.
    Building procedure:
    I decided to perform this test with a 5 ply composition similar to the perhaps most famous hide glue blade out there, the Nittaku Acoustic. But instead of using a Limba medial ply, I chose to use a harder but thinner Sycamore Maple layer. So, the composition is Limba / Sycamore / Kiri / Sycamore / Limba.
    All the plies were carefully selected so that the weight before the glue was applied was the same. The method for applying the glue was the same on both blades, a layer of glue on both sides to be glued, and the blades were clamped at the same time, using the same pressure. The weight difference after the plies were glued and the shape was 0.6g, with the PU blade being the heavier. It wasn’t possible to keep the handles with the same exact weight but the difference was very small. The final weight of the blades was 89.5g for both.

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    Results:
    These were my findings after testing both blades. The first difference I noticed was on the pitch while bouncing a ball on the bare blades. The Hide glue blade possessed a lower pitch, which was corroborated by the measured peak frequency. The Hide glue blade measured 1205 Hz while the PU measured 1227 Hz, a small but noticeable difference. This immediately told me the PU blade would be a little harder and stiffer. These were also the impressions I got during play. The Hide glue blade provides a slightly softer feeling, while the PU feels just a little harder and faster.
    Conclusion:So, is there a difference? Short answer: Yes! But is one better than the other? Not necessarily…I have a preference for softer blades so in this case my vote goes for the Hide glue blade, but I’m sure that a lot of people would prefer the more solid and direct feeling of the PU blade. This decision is very subjective and would depend on the player. Keep in mind that these differences were very small, and in a blind test some might not even notice the difference. There is also the matter of the amount of glue used. With hide glue a layer on each side is needed to have a perfect bond, but with PU glue I normally just need one layer to have a strong bond. So in the case of this test I used more glue than needed, which exacerbated the feeling. In retrospect, I should’ve built a third blade using this method...

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    #402
    For me is the D3 PVAc glue the best choice.
    Still great idea...

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    #403
    This one of two blades commissioned by a forum member. I haven't made a penhold blade in a while so it was nice to build this one, especially with such a unique design.

    Composition: Koto / Ako / Aramid-Carbon / Ayous / Aramid-Carbon / Ako / Koto
    Weight: 93.3g
    Thickness: ~5.5mm
    Freq.: 1270 Hz

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    Last edited by hipnotic; 08-31-2020 at 02:07 PM.
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    #404
    I like the epoxi work.... I find by trials that is better to finish the epoxi part first and then sand down the front side to achieve sharp edges.

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    #405
    Quote Originally Posted by bobpuls
    I like the epoxi work.... I find by trials that is better to finish the epoxi part first and then sand down the front side to achieve sharp edges.
    Thanks for the tip! But this is not epoxy, it's acrylic

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    #406
    This was the second blade commissioned, a variation on my Innegra outer composition with Ash as the top ply. The pattern on the handle is actually a painting made by his father, so it's a really nice hommage.

    Composition: Ash / Innegra-Carbon / Limba / Kiri / Limba / Innegra-Carbon / Ash
    Weight: 83.6g
    Thickness: ~5.75mm
    Freq.: 1350 Hz

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    #407
    That's a piece of art. Great looking blade.

    Just wondering, wouldn't the acryl feel kinda weird when you play for a while and get sweaty hands?

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    #408
    Quote Originally Posted by P1ngP0ng3r
    That's a piece of art. Great looking blade.

    Just wondering, wouldn't the acryl feel kinda weird when you play for a while and get sweaty hands?
    I would suppose so, but the big logo on both sides was requested by the owner. He says it's no problem on the one sided one, but he didn't test this one yet, although he says it feels fine in shadow strokes.

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    #409
    May i ask what a blade like this would cost ? (without the fancy acrylic artwork of course)

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    #410
    Quote Originally Posted by lodro
    May i ask what a blade like this would cost ? (without the fancy acrylic artwork of course)
    I will PM you with prices.
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    #411
    A commissioned blade with inner zylon-carbon composition and some extra work on the wings to make them wider.

    Composition: Limba / Ayous / Zylon-Carbon / Ayous / Zylon-Carbon /Ayous / Limba
    Weight: 85.5g
    Thickness: ~5.75mm
    Freq.: 1380 Hz
    Balance: 3.1cm (Med)

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    Last edited by hipnotic; 09-07-2020 at 08:25 AM.
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  12. P1ngP0ng3r is offline
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    #412
    Gorgeous handle. Very nice design.
    What kind of wood did you use?

    How does Innegra compare to Zylon Carbon?

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    #413
    Quote Originally Posted by P1ngP0ng3r
    Gorgeous handle. Very nice design.
    What kind of wood did you use?

    How does Innegra compare to Zylon Carbon?
    Thanks. The handle is Spanish Walnut with Padauk stripes.

    Zylon is one of the most resilient fibers out there. It's harder, stiffer and bouncier than IC.

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    #414
    Love the handle.... This is how it have to look like... Excellent workmanship!!!

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    #415
    Quote Originally Posted by bobpuls
    Love the handle.... This is how it have to look like... Excellent workmanship!!!
    Thanks Bob, this is also one of my favorites.
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    #416
    Sometimes mistakes happen, it's inevitable, it's what you do to fix those mistakes that matters. This was supposed to be a blade for a customer, but I accidentally glued the plies the wrong way, so the medial ply was facing out on one of the sides. I had to start another blade for the customer, but instead of throwing this one in the bin I decided to add an extra layer in that side as this is a relatively light composition and the weight would still be reasonable. The result wasn't all that bad, in the end this is a 8 ply inner/outer composition and very playable. The feeling is similar to the Innegra-Carbon blades I've been making but with a little extra speed due to the added thickness, making this a solid Off blade.

    Composition: Tola / Framiré / Innegra-Carbon / Framiré / Kiri / Framiré / Innegra-Carbon / Framiré
    Weight: 91g
    Thickness: ~6.35m
    Freq.: 1400 Hz
    Balance: 2.7 cm (low)

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    #417
    Yeah... Happened to everyone... And sometimes it is a good think... Cause you try compositions you never think to do before.
    My battle blade is also this fortunate error.. And I'm really happy how it plays.

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    #418
    And I forgot .....
    The handle is really good one!

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    #419
    Quote Originally Posted by bobpuls
    Yeah... Happened to everyone... And sometimes it is a good think... Cause you try compositions you never think to do before.
    My battle blade is also this fortunate error.. And I'm really happy how it plays.
    Some of mankind's greatest inventions were born of mistakes!

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    #420
    Commissioned inner style blade. Simple but effective.

    Composition: Limba / Ayous / A-C / Ayous / A-C / Ayous / Limba
    Weight: 90.3g
    Thickness: ~5.75mm
    Freq.: 1320 Hz
    Balance: 2.8 cm (low)

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