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    1. Top | #21
      BryanY is online now
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      How to play with a bad feeling player

      Those types of players generate little to no spin, so it requires extra effort to generate spin of your own. I usually focus doing a big and exagerated body/hip rotation to make sure that the ball compresses into the sponge and generates spin. (And I usually have time for that because their balls are slower).

      But that's not the only solution. If you have good touch/feeling then you can use that to your advantage too.


      The slower pace on the ball can be tricky though. You just have to wait for the bounce and follow the pace of the ball closely. It's easy to get used to a certain rhythm and timing when you play with decent topspin players 99% of the time.
      Last edited by BryanY; 2 Weeks Ago at 04:43 AM.

    2. Top | #22
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      Quote Originally Posted by BryanY View Post
      Those types of players generate little to no spin, so it requires extra effort to generate spin of your own.
      Yes, in general, these players should generate less spin, but (there is always but) I know a player who generates a lot fo spin only from his wristh on FH. So basically he does not do full hand upward rotation from the shoulder, he just rotates his wrist. It looks weird, but the ball spins heavily with a nice curve


      The author should clarify a little bit about which "bad feelin" players he is talking about. Cause IMHO I don't think he is talking about slow players with no spin who produce slow balls. It should be really hard to struggle playing against such players, because you basically se what he is doing, you know that nothing is going with a ball and you have plenty of time to react and prepare for an incoming ball...


      I think you can struggle with "bad players" only when they are either producing fast balls, either spinny balls, either both, but using unusual technique (strokes, footwork) so you can't predict from his unusuall technique and preparation to strike the ball what he is going to do in the end and what ball that stroke is going to produce. So after he strikes the ball you are not prepared (because you did not know for what to prepare) and because of that you have too little time to react to a fast moving ball or unconsciously process the spin (because he spinned the ball with unfamiliar stroke) and adapt your footwork and return stroke for respin.
      Last edited by Simas; 2 Weeks Ago at 07:08 AM.

    3. Top | #23
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      more practice with the same category makes to play better

    4. Top | #24
      perham is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by Simas View Post
      Yes, in general, these players should generate less spin, but (there is always but) I know a player who generates a lot fo spin only from his wristh on FH. So basically he does not do full hand upward rotation from the shoulder, he just rotates his wrist. It looks weird, but the ball spins heavily with a nice curve


      The author should clarify a little bit about which "bad feelin" players he is talking about. Cause IMHO I don't think he is talking about slow players with no spin who produce slow balls. It should be really hard to struggle playing against such players, because you basically se what he is doing, you know that nothing is going with a ball and you have plenty of time to react and prepare for an incoming ball...


      I think you can struggle with "bad players" only when they are either producing fast balls, either spinny balls, either both, but using unusual technique (strokes, footwork) so you can't predict from his unusuall technique and preparation to strike the ball what he is going to do in the end and what ball that stroke is going to produce. So after he strikes the ball you are not prepared (because you did not know for what to prepare) and because of that you have too little time to react to a fast moving ball or unconsciously process the spin (because he spinned the ball with unfamiliar stroke) and adapt your footwork and return stroke for respin.
      The author follows a pattern of starting a thread with a very vague question and then never posting in it again. I doubt he even cares about the replies.


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    6. Top | #25
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      Maybe the original poster does but it’s still a topic worth discussing.


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    8. Top | #26
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      Actually I have passed hard times with a new guys which is newbie, his setup is a Korbel with 2 blue storm z1, by himself he can't produce much spin but the rubbers help him a lot, the past week we played and I won 3-2 but their fasts long almost dead serve to the backhand got me surprised and was hard to return the weird service, as I am used to return back, side, topspin services, but dead balls are as my kryptonite , when I tried to return as BH push the ball didn't pass over the net, and when a tried to BH loop I've got a better return, he was a tennis player so his strokes are most like a tennis than a table tennis, I other hand there are a classmate which always plays long fast dead balls, he's known as the ripballs because he broke a lot of balls and keep doing ~.~, it's very hard return their smashes, how can I handle those shots/services? I mean I know it's about technique, stance and timing, but a little more specific.

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    9. Top | #27
      suds79 is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by dominus7 View Post
      Actually I have passed hard times with a new guys which is newbie, his setup is a Korbel with 2 blue storm z1, by himself he can't produce much spin but the rubbers help him a lot, the past week we played and I won 3-2 but their fasts long almost dead serve to the backhand got me surprised and was hard to return the weird service, as I am used to return back, side, topspin services, but dead balls are as my kryptonite , when I tried to return as BH push the ball didn't pass over the net, and when a tried to BH loop I've got a better return, he was a tennis player so his strokes are most like a tennis than a table tennis, I other hand there are a classmate which always plays long fast dead balls, he's known as the ripballs because he broke a lot of balls and keep doing ~.~, it's very hard return their smashes, how can I handle those shots/services? I mean I know it's about technique, stance and timing, but a little more specific.

      Enviado desde mi Moto G (4) mediante Tapatalk
      I practice vs a partner who has one of his FH serves pretty darn fast, dead and towards my BH. So it's exactly what you're talking about. Now I play penhold with inverted & long pips so on my backhand I can choose how I want to return the ball either with inverted or long pips but for the sake of this discussion I'll talk about my thoughts when using inverted.

      Common wisdom would say to loop any ball that is long & off the table. However, as an intermediate player (we all are here), don't bang your head against the wall if you try that and it just keeps going long off the table one after another. If you're practicing with him, sure try it. But if you're in a match and you keep missing it, you need a safe return. Don't just give him the point off one serve. At least make him work for it. He's not a pro either. So trust me every now & then he will miss some 3rd balls. That point swing can easily be the difference in a match.

      I'm a bit proponent of giving a variety of spins & looks to your opponent in service receive. I think you need to learn to chop a long dead serve & keep it low. Sounds like that's not something that's currently a strength of yours. That's okay. It can be done. Just work on your chop game a little. Chop it low & towards whatever side is not his strong attacking side. probably BH. Or his crossover point. You'll find it's a nice safe option to get that tricky serve back. I find it uncanny just how often players at my club like topspin play but hate or struggle vs backspin. Some of them are simply not fit enough to loop. That being the case, in some situations where you could topspin a ball back, in reality you're just giving them what they like and you'd be better off chopping or pushing daring them to try to loop it.

      Okay so lets say you can now relatively safely chop this serve. Sooner or later he will dial in looping a chopped ball on his 3rd hit and you don't want that. If you're anything like me, you've sent long dead fast serves long off the table too many times in your life when attacking those. I am getting better at this thanks to my training partner but I try to focus on not absolutely killing the ball with speed. Make a solid, medium strength, topspin shot back to good spot on the table. Also because I found I was hitting it just long, it's really as simple for me to focus on hitting on top of the ball. Think about it. it has little spin. So you have to generate all the spin on your own. That comes from hitting on top of the ball brushing it. IMO if you hit the back of the ball, it will go long. FYI I play Chinese rubbers. Just hit on top of the ball, spin it up, make sure you get it over the net (if you had been hitting it long like I had that's probably not a concern) and don't hit it a million miles per hour. Give that ball some time to drop on the table.

      Then mix between the two service returns. Have a safe option you can get back in 90% of the time no problem. Then also have a more daring attack option just to keep them honest.
      Last edited by suds79; 6 Days Ago at 02:24 PM.

    10. Top | #28
      perham is offline
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      What works for me is to jump back one step quickly and do a forehand topspin on those balls. Due to the high energy in those balls, your topspin is going to be very fast already, and all you need to do is to brush it correctly. Another alternative is to try to return it flat into the body of your opponent. Third option is to properly chop on it, and return a long heavy backspin ball to his weak point. I used to have a lot of problems with this, but since my footwork has improved I'm having less and less trouble with this. I just need to remind myself to do a positive stroke on it and not just stand there and block.

      Quote Originally Posted by dominus7 View Post
      Actually I have passed hard times with a new guys which is newbie, his setup is a Korbel with 2 blue storm z1, by himself he can't produce much spin but the rubbers help him a lot, the past week we played and I won 3-2 but their fasts long almost dead serve to the backhand got me surprised and was hard to return the weird service, as I am used to return back, side, topspin services, but dead balls are as my kryptonite , when I tried to return as BH push the ball didn't pass over the net, and when a tried to BH loop I've got a better return, he was a tennis player so his strokes are most like a tennis than a table tennis, I other hand there are a classmate which always plays long fast dead balls, he's known as the ripballs because he broke a lot of balls and keep doing ~.~, it's very hard return their smashes, how can I handle those shots/services? I mean I know it's about technique, stance and timing, but a little more specific.

      Enviado desde mi Moto G (4) mediante Tapatalk

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    12. Top | #29
      suds79 is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by perham View Post
      I just need to remind myself to do a positive stroke on it and not just stand there and block.
      preach it. For people who like to smash, the just block it back is almost sure death.

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    14. Top | #30
      perham is offline
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      True. I'm pretty sure that's why they do long fast serves anyway. I was playing against a guy last night that ONLY served long and fast, and the variation was only in placement. I might have returned 3 or 4 balls like a dead guy and I got bullets in return. For the rest, even chopping (properly, with a long stroke) was way more effective. My new season's moto in competition games is "don't play like a zombie".

      Quote Originally Posted by suds79 View Post
      preach it. For people who like to smash, the just block it back is almost sure death.

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    16. Top | #31
      suds79 is offline
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      I had a revenge match vs someone who I beat me I last played years ago. The theme was he kept serving me long and fast to my BH and in my arrogance I thought "he can't give me that". And I missed a lot of Bh loops.

      Fast forward years later. I know I'm better now but I remembered his style. Yep. Same thing. This guy is a classic case of someone who likes topspin and really doesn't like backspin. His serves were long fast with heavy side/top.

      I attacked maybe 20% of them just to keep him honest but I chopped those side/top balls and with the aid of his serve along with my chop, those were so heavy. A lot of loops & pushes into the net. I was more than happy to get into a push game with him as I saw that as the easiest way for points even though I'm an attacking player. It was a pretty convincing 3-0 victory this time around.
      Last edited by suds79; 6 Days Ago at 02:48 PM.

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    18. Top | #32
      perham is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by suds79 View Post
      I had a revenge match vs someone who I beat me I last played years ago. The theme was he kept serving me long and fast to my BH and in my arrogance I thought "he can't give me that". And I missed a lot of Bh loops.

      Fast forward years later. I know I'm better now but I remembered his style. Yep. Same thing. This guy is a classic case of someone who likes topspin and really doesn't like backspin. His serves were long fast with heavy side/top.

      I attacked maybe 20% of them just to keep him honest but I chopped those side/top balls and with the aid of his serve along with my chop, those were so heavy. A lot of loops & pushes into the net. I was more than happy to get into a push game with him as I saw that as the easiest way for points even though I'm an attacking player. It was a pretty convincing 3-0 victory this time around.
      Seems like some experiences are universal. People who consider pushing game inferior do it to their own demise. A wise man once said "before a great topspin comes an even greater push (with placement and a lot of backspin)".

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    20. Top | #33
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      It is a fact that there are many very awkward playing players in amateur TT. It is a fact that unless one is a very advanced or elite amateur, one can struggle or lose vs such a play whose overall level is lower than your own, but be consistent enough to keep it on the table with a ball you do not understand the spin or depth or timing.

      Take heart, play the maximum number of styles and players you possibly can, embrace pips players and the "Walking Dead" players with decades old rubbers who still have a fire to play... hang out, teach, coach, challenge, do comps...

      Eventually, as you get more experience and a better level, you will see the kind of ball better, then be ready to cope with them a lot more successfully.
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    22. Top | #34
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      It just feels so much more convincing from somebody who has been there done that and is still doing it !! nice post Der_Echte .. cannot agree with you more ... there is no bad play, there is no weird style, there is no junk rubber , its not a dark art if you understand what going on .. fear of the unknown is the reason for most negativity ... forget it just play, make the most of it and try to put one more ball on the table .. remember at the most basic level, in table tennis the person who puts one more ball on the table wins ! Some times we just lose track of the essentials ...
      Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte View Post
      It is a fact that there are many very awkward playing players in amateur TT. It is a fact that unless one is a very advanced or elite amateur, one can struggle or lose vs such a play whose overall level is lower than your own, but be consistent enough to keep it on the table with a ball you do not understand the spin or depth or timing.

      Take heart, play the maximum number of styles and players you possibly can, embrace pips players and the "Walking Dead" players with decades old rubbers who still have a fire to play... hang out, teach, coach, challenge, do comps...

      Eventually, as you get more experience and a better level, you will see the kind of ball better, then be ready to cope with them a lot more successfully.
      Lets go Spinny Looping !

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    24. Top | #35
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      Players should develop adaptability in adjusting the amount of spin they put into the ball as well as adjusting the angle of the racket with different kinds of incoming spin or no spin.

    25. Top | #36
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      Quote Originally Posted by ttmonster-smash
      It just feels so much more convincing from somebody who has been there done that and is still doing it !! nice post Der_Echte .. cannot agree with you more ... there is no bad play, there is no weird style, there is no junk rubber , its not a dark art if you understand what going on .. fear of the unknown is the reason for most negativity ... forget it just play, make the most of it and try to put one more ball on the table .. remember at the most basic level, in table tennis the person who puts one more ball on the table wins ! Some times we just lose track of the essentials ...
      I agree overall. There are a couple ways to look at it. Your view, which all styles are a part of TT nothing is weird, it is all open. Looking at it in my view, there are "weird" styles and "junk" rubber. If one plays mostly modern offensive style, then a gal or dude who bumps the ball with a 25 yr old glazed over and rutted rubber will have a weird style and give "junk" balls... that is what someone from that perspective would see and feel.

      We are in agreement on what to do - screw those who want to ban o eliminate it.

      "Non-Standard" equipment, tactics, shots, or decision making are part of our sport. If one wants to be able to function in battle vs this stuff, one has to learn, plan, adapt, overcome, and win.

      For the "Walking Dead" player I describe... that kind of player plays a mostly un-athletic game (literally walks like a dead zombie to the ball if they move at all) stays parked near middle of table, sticks out the bat (FH or BH dead glazed irregular rubber) and bumps back the ball off the bounce low and deep (or short enough). (sometimes high enough to entice a strong attack while you mis-read the ball) That player depends on errors from the opponent for outright points. Sometimes, they rely on a pop-up or a slightly high ball, which they plan and see, which they step around open FH position ready to smash. It is often successful as their bang impact overcomes the dead of their rubber and they hit a straight shot line drive winner.

      Many offensive players are not accustomed to a lazy looking player just bumping the ball back - offensive player is out of sync on his or her instincts. That is issue number one. Next is the spin - or lack of it (and placement). Depending on the impact, the "Walking Dead" player can kill the spin (mostly what they do) reflect it back to give underspin, or add to it to give under or top back, depending on what came to them. Often, this player plays off the bounce, uses angles, wide placement, short placement (or shorter than it looks) or deep placement at body just fast enough to keep it low and deep and safe. Understanding the kinds of shots for each given ball and their basic tactics is the next step.

      Now we see the basic shots and tactics, plus their way of thinking and reacting to different situations... we can assess what we do and work with what we got to make a plan to win vs this. A part of the plan is to be safe and create opportunities to use offense, or their failed offense to win points. A part of it is to not play "too safe" and mis-read a ball to give them an easy point. These players are patient and opportunistic. Understanding the opponent and feeds them is important.

      Some things we can do in general are to keep it low, keep it real deep, keep it low and tight (the most difficult to do) for the first return if the incoming ball is short (or real deep, a low return is possible) You do that right and the opponent doesn't have an easy ball to attack, so they bump it back. You know what you put on the ball, you know you put it deep and fast enough, you know opponent is gunna bump it and not much time to change stuff. PERFECT. Opponent is gunna give you a long and slower ball (so he or she can be safe) You are ready... and depending on the ball, can spin it really heavy right at them or away... or smash or loop-kill it if it is high enough.

      You can also try to push low and away, then bump it right back to where they were to run them around. If you can read their ball, you can do this. If you mis-read the ball or are not in position, you will miss, hit the net, or pop it up. BAD on you if you do that.

      If you try to play "Too Safe" and push more than one ball, you increase your chance of mis-reading a ball and putting it in the net or out. "Walking Dead" player giggles as he or she picks up the ball and the TV goes to commercial break. Even worse, you mis-read it, and pop it up. Opponent sees it, takes a step around and forward, then smashes the ball of your noggin. The giggle from opponent is equally loud and you are demoralized. That is what that player does. Don't feed the troll.

      Understand your risks and work with them, be aggressive safe and know your odds. The more you bump it back to them in a rally, the more chance "Walking Dead" is gunna walk to the scoreboard and increase the number on their side.... while they giggle and annoy you to insanity.

      Give the walking dead what they hate... HEAVY spin. It is easy to setup. Just be sure you understand that you give one underspin light, then be ready to loop heavy, BH or FH. Know opponent is gunna try to pressure you. Just bend knees and be ready. Later, when you hit a few heavy loops in a row and show the "Walking Dead" they cannot handle you... then they will start to take more risks with their pressure shots... usually it will result in lost points for them. They are 2-3 levels lower player, so that should be natural. Later, they see this doesn't work and go back to "safe", but you are ready to spin them out of the gym. They see this too and give up. That is what you do to opponents when you are 2-3 levels higher level player.

      Still, if the lower rated "Walking Dead" player sees you be indecisive or inconsistent, then they will step on your throat over and over and make you wanna give up. If you went down that road, you deserve what you got. It is called "Using leverage" and a shrewd player lower level than a higher player has to use every inch of leverage they got.

      That is how I dealt with the dead rubber player in my singles in the team finals and sent dude "walking" back to the team bench. Unfortunately, our doubles team up 9-6 in the last game of the deciding doubles match vs players both 3 levels higher rated... eventually they tightened up under pressure and the better opponents played loose and won 12-10... just like a better and more experienced team should do.

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    27. Top | #37
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      To paraphrase what Bruce Lee said always adapt. Be like water my friend.

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      Tony's Table Tennis (4 Days Ago)

    29. Top | #38
      Der_Echte is offline
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      Now what if the "Walking Dead" player is around your level ???!!!???

      Well, you really gotta make your shots count or you are gunna be on the wrong side of a fight. If that player is equal or close enough in level to you, chances are his/her pressure shots with the dead rubber will be quality enough to trouble you or entice you into asymmetrical warfare with odds on their side. Your own attacks, no matter how well setup do not have the same effectiveness/consistency. Still, if you are consistent/patient enough,. you can do it. Be a brave risk manager.

    30. Top | #39
      perham is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte View Post
      Now what if the "Walking Dead" player is around your level ???!!!???

      Well, you really gotta make your shots count or you are gunna be on the wrong side of a fight. If that player is equal or close enough in level to you, chances are his/her pressure shots with the dead rubber will be quality enough to trouble you or entice you into asymmetrical warfare with odds on their side. Your own attacks, no matter how well setup do not have the same effectiveness/consistency. Still, if you are consistent/patient enough,. you can do it. Be a brave risk manager.
      I used to have big problems with these guys, but now I can defeat them quite easily. I noticed one thing though: you never need 100% power against them. Actually, a series of pushes with the correct placement can lead to an easy ball that you can either smash, or do a 70% topspin which is guarantied to be on the table, and yet usually gets the point for you. Most of the times against pimple or antitop players being patient is the key. Specially because they're often really good at blocking fast balls, but not very good at keeping spinny balls low over the net.

      One other thing that always needs to be taken care of is against walking dead smashers where you need to play low trajectory balls no matter how long they go. Often placement and height is more important than spin and speed in those cases. It needs a bit of practice, but once you know their weakness, they have no answer to your game due to their lack of versatility.

      Oh, and side spin works wonders in taking them away from the table when used with correct placement.

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