Wouldn't be interesting to have an allwood koto - kiri combination?

I've made quite a few Koto-Koto-Kiri-Koto-Koto blades. I even made one for Der_Echte! I like them - they're very crisp feeling, with less of that low pitch, dull feeling you get from a Limba-Limba blade. They're pretty stiff, so some people feel like they're not great looping blades and that their speed is rather linear.

Or perhaps try other woods....not everything has to use koto, limba or ayous. Guess that’s why I got into blade building...my desire to use and build blades that don’t use the same old common woods that are in 75% of all blades built by commercial companies.

Kiri it's almost like balsa, although it has double the weight and it's just a little stiffer, but gives a similar feeling to the blade, so it has to be used with care. I don't think a koto - kiri - kiri - kiri - kiri - kiri - kiri - koto would be that great, you would need a harder wood before the outer plies. It would also depend on the thickness of the plies.

I'm with cfagyal, not every blade has to use the same old boring woods. Commercial companies used them because it's cheaper for them, but as a blade builder, it's interesting to try other woods and compositions.

Stiffness and hardness are different things. It's stiff enough, but it would be very soft.

An interesting thread this one. I presume the large blade manufacturers have created hundreds if not thousands of combinations and then dismissed them through a testing phase. I wonder if the reason there are no 7 ply Kiri blades is because they've been made and rejected. It may be that some people might like it but not enough to warrant putting it in to production. I'd be interested to know how the blade design and testing stages work with one of the large manufacturers. For example: How many blade designers work for butterfly? How long is a standard R and D phase? Who are their testers? What's the success criteria they use?
Have they dismissed the less common woods because they don't think there is a big enough market for it rather than they are expensive. After all ebony gets used frequently but it's one of the most expensive veneers to buy - rosewood too. So maybe it's not about price? Sustainability, is this in their minds? I also presume they look at the custom blade makers and what they are building. Surely they've all looked at what Ross Leidy produces and wondered how it affects them and whether this is something they can tap into. After all we (blade makers) do it as a hobby and for leisure, for them it's business and therefore much more serious.

Bourbon, Scotch, Beer, Scotch, Bourbon

GinjaNinja, you make valid points and i agree the market is smaller for more exotic woods. However, i didn't say it's because they are more expensive, i said it's cheaper to the manufacturers, resulting in a larger profit margin. They can buy them in bulk because they easily and readily accessible. When your dealing with thousands of production units, some cents can make a difference.

Also, i expect some woods like ebony and rosewood being used even less in the future because of the CITES legislation.

hipnotic said:

GinjaNinja, you make valid points and i agree the market is smaller for more exotic woods. However, i didn't say it's because they are more expensive, i said it's cheaper to the manufacturers, resulting in a larger profit margin. They can buy them in bulk because they easily and readily accessible. When your dealing with thousands of production units, some cents can make a difference.

Also, i expect some woods like ebony and rosewood being used even less in the future because of the CITES legislation.

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You might be giving me too much credit as I wasn't really trying to make any points as I don't know how TT manufacturers work. I was hoping someone might know.

GinjaNinja said:

You might be giving me too much credit as I wasn't really trying to make any points as I don't know how TT manufacturers work. I was hoping someone might know.

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They are great questions - I can't imagine the R&D is wildly scientific (in comparison to other fields and other sports equipment), and it wouldn't surprise me if much of it comes down to a small batch of blade testers who try things out occasionally (or from top players). My fear is that there would be lots of selection bias if they're only getting blade feedback from the best in the world, since their strokes would be much better in comparison to the mass of people who will actually be using the blades.

Personally, I would like to work on a blade (or series of blades) that is comprised only of woods available locally. That wouldn't be so bad for me, based on where I live (the Pacific Northwest, US). I have woods like Western Red Cedar, Douglas Fir (which looks like it would perform similar to Limba, specification-wise), many other cedars and spruce varieties, among others. If you have any suggestions for compositions of a Pacific Northwest blade, I would be happy to hear it!

Nate4s said:

I've made quite a few Koto-Koto-Kiri-Koto-Koto blades. I even made one for Der_Echte! I like them - they're very crisp feeling, with less of that low pitch, dull feeling you get from a Limba-Limba blade. They're pretty stiff, so some people feel like they're not great looping blades and that their speed is rather linear.

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I put a dynamic rubber on FH of that blade and it works out quite well. Excellent handle and balance.

Nate4s said:

They are great questions - I can't imagine the R&D is wildly scientific (in comparison to other fields and other sports equipment), and it wouldn't surprise me if much of it comes down to a small batch of blade testers who try things out occasionally (or from top players). My fear is that there would be lots of selection bias if they're only getting blade feedback from the best in the world, since their strokes would be much better in comparison to the mass of people who will actually be using the blades.

Personally, I would like to work on a blade (or series of blades) that is comprised only of woods available locally. That wouldn't be so bad for me, based on where I live (the Pacific Northwest, US). I have woods like Western Red Cedar, Douglas Fir (which looks like it would perform similar to Limba, specification-wise), many other cedars and spruce varieties, among others. If you have any suggestions for compositions of a Pacific Northwest blade, I would be happy to hear it!

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I suppose the size and scope of a design and R and D will depend on the market. You're right Nate I bet even Butterfly are very limited when compared with tennis or golf companies. I was hoping someone on the forum may have direct experience.

I love the idea of a blade made form local sources, not sure what I'd used as a core in the UK, poplar could be an option but is perhaps a touch heavy. Outers and medial would be OK, Elm, lime, chestnut. By the way, douglas fir is a great wood to use. It's my favourite medial ply and I've always wanted to use it as an outer but never got around to it.

I think one other problem is the cost of putting a new product on the market. Were i play the clubs have a discount on Donic products, so almost everybody plays with Donic, especially the Persson powerplay and the Bluefire rubbers, because that's what they can experiment. Trying new things involves a monetary risk, so many people don't do it. The manufacturers end up going the same route and put the "safe" products out there. To put a new/innovative/different product requires a strong marketing campaign that is not cheap and is very risky. It's like the guitar business, people always complain there is no innovation, but when Gibson puts something new on the market they complain anyway, in the end people just want a 59 Les Paul. In table tennis we are always looking the perfect Viscaria...

Nate4s said:

They are great questions - I can't imagine the R&D is wildly scientific (in comparison to other fields and other sports equipment), and it wouldn't surprise me if much of it comes down to a small batch of blade testers who try things out occasionally (or from top players). My fear is that there would be lots of selection bias if they're only getting blade feedback from the best in the world, since their strokes would be much better in comparison to the mass of people who will actually be using the blades.

Personally, I would like to work on a blade (or series of blades) that is comprised only of woods available locally. That wouldn't be so bad for me, based on where I live (the Pacific Northwest, US). I have woods like Western Red Cedar, Douglas Fir (which looks like it would perform similar to Limba, specification-wise), many other cedars and spruce varieties, among others. If you have any suggestions for compositions of a Pacific Northwest blade, I would be happy to hear it!

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As my best feeling blade is with a Katsura core, I would suggest it for a try. its USDA hardiness zone is 4-8 and should be found in your region or nearby. Katsura is suitable for oneply blades too.

hipnotic said:

I think one other problem is the cost of putting a new product on the market. Were i play the clubs have a discount on Donic products, so almost everybody plays with Donic, especially the Persson powerplay and the Bluefire rubbers, because that's what they can experiment. Trying new things involves a monetary risk, so many people don't do it. The manufacturers end up going the same route and put the "safe" products out there. To put a new/innovative/different product requires a strong marketing campaign that is not cheap and is very risky. It's like the guitar business, people always complain there is no innovation, but when Gibson puts something new on the market they complain anyway, in the end people just want a 59 Les Paul. In table tennis we are always looking the perfect Viscaria...

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This is a good point and perhaps explains where custom blade makers fit in with the bigger picture. To continue the guitar analogy, the last 20 to 30 years have seen the rise of custom guitar builders across the world. I used to be a professional musician (before the days of mortgages and family and the need for a steady income!) and I only buy guitars from custom makers. The quality control is better and so is the attention to detail. My experience is that these makers do it because they love making guitars and money is not their primary goal. However, several guitarists I know wouldn't feel confident or comfortable ordering a guitar that is made in a workshop in someone's back garden.

GinjaNinja said:

My experience is that these makers do it because they love making guitars and money is not their primary goal.

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Thats interesing, what is the price range of such guitars, aproximately?

GinjaNinja said:

This is a good point and perhaps explains where custom blade makers fit in with the bigger picture. To continue the guitar analogy, the last 20 to 30 years have seen the rise of custom guitar builders across the world. I used to be a professional musician (before the days of mortgages and family and the need for a steady income!) and I only buy guitars from custom makers. The quality control is better and so is the attention to detail. My experience is that these makers do it because they love making guitars and money is not their primary goal. However, several guitarists I know wouldn't feel confident or comfortable ordering a guitar that is made in a workshop in someone's back garden.

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Yeah, unfortunately people don't recognize that a custom made instrument is very often much better than a commercial one. But there is also a big factor, which is resale value. Custom instruments are much harder to sell than big brand guitars. I have made and sold a few guitars, but i was only in it for the fun, if i were to account the labor, there would be some money lost.

hipnotic said:

Yeah, unfortunately people don't recognize that a custom made instrument is very often much better than a commercial one. But there is also a big factor, which is resale value. Custom instruments are much harder to sell than big brand guitars. I have made and sold a few guitars, but i was only in it for the fun, if i were to account the labor, there would be some money lost.

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Well, I see a lttle difference in what we understand by "custom" guitar. For me a custom guitar is the instrument you make for a particular customer on his request and with regard to his particular requirements for some elements and materials. If you make your own unique instrument, it would be custom for you, but for the casual customer it will be just your lable instrument, not a custom one. Making custom guitars you don't have to make them and afterthat to try to sale them, but you have to find the customers to order them.

langel said:

Well, I see a lttle difference in what we understand by "custom" guitar. For me a custom guitar is the instrument you make for a particular customer on his request and with regard to his particular requirements for some elements and materials. If you make your own unique instrument, it would be custom for you, but for the casual customer it will be just your lable instrument, not a custom one. Making custom guitars you don't have to make them and afterthat to try to sale them, but you have to find the customers to order them.

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Yes, that's the definition of custom. Of course if i build a guitar for me other people may not appreciate it as i do, and i'm ok with that. But what i was trying to say is that a builder can make a copy of a commercial guitar with much more quality than the original, and still be worth much less in the used market. Most people don't care about quality, just the name on the headstock. As an example, one of Gibson's most famous guitars, Slash's LP, is in fact a copy, not a real Gibson.

But i think we are getting a little off-topic