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    1. Top | #41
      FruitLoop is offline
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      Depends what level you are talking about. ALL blades are perfectly fast for an attacker right up to a fairly high level. Then yes, they are too slow.
      Last edited by FruitLoop; 1 Day Ago at 11:41 PM.

    2. Top | #42
      UpSideDownCarl is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by Floris View Post
      We're getting of-topic I guess!
      Quote Originally Posted by langel View Post
      Yeah,
      Pastafarians have to due respect to all... uhm..., drinks they are due to compagne.
      And there is a great gap between the "beginning", and the accompanying of the next.
      Come on. This is funny. I have no idea what langel means. But, I am still laughing.
      Spin Everything.

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    4. Top | #43
      UpSideDownCarl is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by perham View Post
      I think there’s more to it than just classifying OFF as ALL. In the 40+ era, I think we need a different scale completely. ALL used to mean that it was suitable for an all rounder player. But most ALL blades now can be used for nothing but defensive styles. They’re just too slow for 40+ ball. I think the current all rounder players should go for OFF- blades, and we need another category of OFF++ to describe some crazy fast blades. I’m not sure what blade qualifies as DEF- anymore. Also, there’s a world of difference between OFF- carbon and all wood blades.

      Sometimes it occurs to me that maybe there’s really no objective way to describe the speed of a blade without considering other factors such as rubbers, weight, etc. and this categorisation might be useless anyway.
      Defensive blades usually have a much larger head size. So an allround blade used as a defensive blade is usually slower and riskier because the smaller head of the allround blade does not give as big a window of room for error.

      The larger blade face gives a little more speed and a lot more feeling and flex. So they can design the blades where it would be slower if the head was the size of an offensive blade head. But this also makes the racket speed and recovery speed not as fast on the offensive shots.

      Head size options that OSP gives for one of their defensive blades are:

      small: 161mm x 155mm
      medium: 163mm x 157mm
      large: 165mm x 159mm

      A standard size for an Off+, Off, Off-, All+ or All blade would be around: 157mm x 150mm.

      There are blades with smaller heads than that. There are blades with larger heads than that. But that is very standard. Here are a few that have that head size:

      TB ALC, TB ZLC (all TB blades really), Viscaria, ZJK series, Stiga Clipper, Primorac, Stiga Allround Classic, Allround Evolution, Offensive Classic.....I could go on.

      Two blades that have a smaller head size than 157x150 are Stiga Rosewood XO and Stiga Allround NCT.

      Two blades that have a slightly larger head than 157x150 are the Korbel and the Stratus Power Wood. Which is why these two are faster than one might expect. And also why they can tend to be head heavey.

      So, control and head size are often part of what defines a Defensive blade rather than speed. Whereas, an Allround blade is supposed to be okay for everything without necessarily being exceptional at anything.

      I do think, in spite of the new ball, a beginner using a blade that is too fast will hamper their development much more than a beginner using a blade that is a little on the slow side. The slower blade makes you work harder and your technique develops faster. The faster blade makes beginners cut down their strokes so they don't hit the ball long and slows the development of good stroke technique.

      Stratus Power Wood is not an Allround blade regardless of the ball. And it may be an okay blade to start with. But it is likely a little faster than it should be for someone who is lower level than say, 1500 (USATT). So, that would actually be someone who usually would usually think of himself as an intermediate level player although I might think of that as a beginner.
      Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 1 Day Ago at 03:53 PM.

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    6. Top | #44
      Der_Echte is offline
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      1500 player over here can be anyone from a fat n 50 dude with a headband and gut hanging over table to a ninja assassin doing Rambo counter loops.

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    8. Top | #45
      chintanmashroo is offline
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      You forgot about a skinny monkey who jumps for a banana flick


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    10. Top | #46
      perham is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte View Post
      1500 player over here can be anyone from a fat n 50 dude with a headband and gut hanging over table to a ninja assassin doing Rambo counter loops.

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      How do you do Rambo counter loops? Doesn't that require bow and arrows or something?

    11. Top | #47
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      It may sound a little bit strange, but I comletely agree with the both statements - the one of Carl and the one of perham, quoted above.
      I've said my opinion that a player should keep his bat on one "-" below his level of expertise. This minus is a big plus in the tactical phase of the game, providing confidence in control.
      At the same time I agree with perham that most of the blades are classified to be faster than they actually are.
      And I agree that there are many OFF- and even OFF blades that are in fact perfect for AR, though they may be capable of OFF, but an usual AR player may even never mind it.

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    13. Top | #48
      perham is offline
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      No argument from my side. You're waaaay more knowledgeable on the topic than I am. I wouldn't consider Powerwood as an all round blade either, but some allround blades like Joola P-ALL are definitely worse for a beginner to start with. I have a friend who almost quit the game last year due to that blade alone (and not seeing much improvement in his game) and since he changed to Appelgren Allplay he has found a new interest in the game. Maybe a slightly faster blade provides enough encouragement to improve.

      Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl View Post
      Defensive blades usually have a much larger head size. So an allround blade used as a defensive blade is usually slower and riskier because the smaller head of the allround blade does not give as big a window of room for error.

      The larger blade face gives a little more speed and a lot more feeling and flex. So they can design the blades where it would be slower if the head was the size of an offensive blade head. But this also makes the racket speed and recovery speed not as fast on the offensive shots.

      Head size options that OSP gives for one of their defensive blades are:

      small: 161mm x 155mm
      medium: 163mm x 157mm
      large: 165mm x 159mm

      A standard size for an Off+, Off, Off-, All+ or All blade would be around: 157mm x 150mm.

      There are blades with smaller heads than that. There are blades with larger heads than that. But that is very standard. Here are a few that have that head size:

      TB ALC, TB ZLC (all TB blades really), Viscaria, ZJK series, Stiga Clipper, Primorac, Stiga Allround Classic, Allround Evolution, Offensive Classic.....I could go on.

      Two blades that have a smaller head size than 157x150 are Stiga Rosewood XO and Stiga Allround NCT.

      Two blades that have a slightly larger head than 157x150 are the Korbel and the Stratus Power Wood. Which is why these two are faster than one might expect. And also why they can tend to be head heavey.

      So, control and head size are often part of what defines a Defensive blade rather than speed. Whereas, an Allround blade is supposed to be okay for everything without necessarily being exceptional at anything.

      I do think, in spite of the new ball, a beginner using a blade that is too fast will hamper their development much more than a beginner using a blade that is a little on the slow side. The slower blade makes you work harder and your technique develops faster. The faster blade makes beginners cut down their strokes so they don't hit the ball long and slows the development of good stroke technique.

      Stratus Power Wood is not an Allround blade regardless of the ball. And it may be an okay blade to start with. But it is likely a little faster than it should be for someone who is lower level than say, 1500 (USATT). So, that would actually be someone who usually would usually think of himself as an intermediate level player although I might think of that as a beginner.

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    15. Top | #49
      Metaxa is offline
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      Easy choice

      Andro Super Core CL ALL+ / 70gr.

      But maybe a better choice (at least for me):
      Andro Temper Tech All+ / also 70gr.

      Good luck!


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    16. Top | #50
      Der_Echte is offline
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      For the Rambo Counterloop... think of the qualities Rambo brings to the fight (Somehow, those are pretty quick ending fights)

      Decisive, violent sudden, destructive, forceful extreme.

      There are some 1500 level players here capable of those shots. Usually, something like that used to get trained only once a certain physical or experience level was reached.

      They threw that coaching manual out of the state along with the slick lp rubbers.

      It's a little different over here. Even the Geezer crowd got Rambo shots.

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    18. Top | #51
      Der_Echte is offline
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      While we are at it, ttd member t91mwp sez to toss in the latest Andro blade in the review into the mix.

      He had me do a few shots with it one night after the thread... it wasn't explosive like the review... but at 78 grams, what does one expect?

      That bat was a control OFF setup that never missed a fast loop.

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      Last edited by Der_Echte; 1 Day Ago at 10:54 PM.

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    20. Top | #52
      Ioiettino is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by langel View Post
      It may sound a little bit strange, but I comletely agree with the both statements - the one of Carl and the one of perham, quoted above.
      Ahah yes, I'm on the same boat. I also play harder and faster stuff than I would have with celluloid. And, heck, even defining speed is a pain (gears, behaviour, flex and whatnot). I guess the proper denomination wouldn't be "speed rating" but rather "intended type of use in combination with a 38mm celluloid ball", which of course fits Carl's point about headsizes. Some reference points (say, Stiga Allround Classic or all the blades that have been around for ages) haven't changed while others (yes, the balls, but also the tables somewhat, and way more so the technique) have changed radically, so no wonder there are contradictions we can all agree with.

      Also yes, "less is more" when in doubt.
      Not meaning to convey anything relevant here other than the anecdote, but I tried a Tibhar IV-L with 2.1 Vari Spin both sides, this very evening. It happens almost every time, first thinking "hey but it's fun as heck!" and then "why don't I have one of these?" Of course I am very much "intermediate" material, whatever that means (anywhere from top5 to top10 depending on the day in a French regional club of 80 players, to give an idea) and I can handle my own set up, I hope. I wouldn't give up on it because of counterloops, and that extra stiffness required when using heavier balls. But there are some other things you can do with the slow and spinny stuff, my lord, the smile I got is the reason I play TT in the first place.

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    22. Top | #53
      UpSideDownCarl is offline
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      Der is making some good points. I simplified. Someone with good technique can use what he wants even if something like girth, age or chicken and beer bets is keeping his game skills from being as high as his technical abilities.

      I guess to simplify, a blade a little slower is useful. Often that means, a little slower than what the player thinks he needs. This is really not that different than Langel's "-".

      Blades in the All+ and Off- categories are usually good for people who are below......say elite amateur level.

      And it is worth realizing that most top pros, regardless of how amazing they all really are, don't use such fast blades.

      Like, for instance, a Viscaria might be too fast for a beginner. But it isn't really such a fast blade. I would classify it as Off. But it is not like a Schlager Carbon.
      Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 21 Hours Ago at 02:24 AM.

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    24. Top | #54
      Der_Echte is offline
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      For the actual question from OP... there are too many to list. Every maker has 1-5 blades of this class in their lineup. If you go with so blades a faster top end, but dwell and feel, double that list. We talk about them all the time from time to time. Many of these are center of mass to start out with, or as a fallback bat until you get main blade sorted out, even if you play a faster bat.

      The Donic Persson Power Play 7 ply I use the last few months (via ttd member erm - he gave me a few 82 gram models) is middle of the road OFF on top end, but the overall feel and touch are like the ALL+ 5 ply crowd. Even this blade could suit someone starting out if they are coached right.

      There is such a wide range of blades that could work it is impossible to talk about them all at the same time or month.

      That Andro blade I cracked the joke about on T95mwp's behalf, at the very low weight it was, that blade could also be well suited for a player who would mostly begin with drives (think the Korean system) So could a 10-15 gram lower weight blade of a lot of the powerful OFF blades that normally weigh in upper 80s/lower 90s could fit that category as well.

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    26. Top | #55
      perham is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte View Post
      For the Rambo Counterloop... think of the qualities Rambo brings to the fight (Somehow, those are pretty quick ending fights)

      Decisive, violent sudden, destructive, forceful extreme.

      There are some 1500 level players here capable of those shots. Usually, something like that used to get trained only once a certain physical or experience level was reached.

      They threw that coaching manual out of the state along with the slick lp rubbers.

      It's a little different over here. Even the Geezer crowd got Rambo shots.

      Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
      I have a teammate who does such shots. He smashes with the force of 300 Apache choppers. Sometimes, his smashes go through the net. From now on I’m gonna call him Rambo.


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