How to recover after few days of consecutive play

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This might be true. I put a lot of pressure on my knee when I do lateral movements. I think this is mostly due to weak muscles, but I thought the solution is to keep at it until the muscles are strong enough that I can do clean side to side jumps. As for the shoulder, it is again the footwork that is the problem. In particular, trying to do topspins when not in position puts a lot of tension on the shoulder. I'm in a transitional phase in my technique, moving from "make it work" to "do it correctly", and I think it's taking a toll.

Perham, how old are you?

Before you started playing TT to the extent you play now, what physical condition were you in?

What kind of physical condition are you in now?

I will state again, if you are feeling stress in your knees, and not your quadricep muscles, that is caused by technique. That is you doing something bad for you. That is you having biomechanics that are dysfunctional and causing stress to CONNECTIVE TISSUE. Supplements that help muscles repair faster will not help ligaments, tendons and cartilage repair faster.

The same goes with your shoulder. If you are taking a bad stroke because you are not in position, it still is not just the feet. That is the bad stroke as well.

Knee pain and shoulder pain are not subject to normal muscle repair from working muscles. They are repetitive stress to the joints from dysfunctional movement patterns.

My guess is you should do some video of yourself for you to watch (not for the forum) so you can see if you can figure out what mechanics are causing the damage. You could show a coach as well to ask for help.

But stress in knees and shoulder are not related to the kinds of tissue repair that occur in a workout where someone has good biomechanics. Strengthening muscles is very different than damaging connective tissue in joints. And tissue like ligaments and tendons take VERY LONG to heal because they have very little vascular flow. Cartilage takes enough longer than ligaments and tendons that a doctor will just simplify and say that cartilage does not repair. And from a functional standpoint, that may as well be true.

As we get older these kinds of tissue take longer to repair. And starting at about 30, when you damage ligaments, tendons and cartilage, as they do "repair" they also tend to ossify. That means that small amounts of bone grow where tendon used to be and should be.

If you were talking about muscle soreness, this would not be an issue. But you seem to be referring to joint damage and trying to keep the conversation on muscle repair as though the joint damage could possibly be related to muscle repair.

So, I would say, you need to look at footage to see how you are damaging your knees and shoulder so you can correct the dysfunctional movement patterns.

I am 53. I can play for 5-6 hours 5-6 days in a row and not feel more than mild muscle soreness in my thighs. Pain in my knees would be a red flag indicating that I was doing something wrong. Even anabolic steroids would not protect you from that. :)
 
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I'm 31, and not really in good physical condition. I'm 180 cm (5'11") and 120 kg (around 260 pounds I guess), so a lot of stress is on the knees during the play. I used to be way worse, as in my stamina was really low, and not much muscle mass. But recently, I've improved on the muscle side and lost some fat. Overall my weight has stayed the same but the composition is changing. I've noticed that when transferring weight, I'm not turning my feet a lot, which I think is the main culprit for the knee pain. As for the shoulder, it only really hurts if I overtrain. Specially when doing ripping backhands with tired muscles, I feel I have no control over the stroke. As long as I suppress the desire to smash-kill with backhand, I'm kinda good.

It's a good idea to record myself from the side angle to see if I do anything crazy during the game. I'm gonna show it to the coach as well. Thanks for the suggestion!


Perham, how old are you?

Before you started playing TT to the extent you play now, what physical condition were you in?

What kind of physical condition are you in now?

I will state again, if you are feeling stress in your knees, and not the muscles around your knees, that is technique. That is you doing something bad for you. That is you having biomechanics that are dysfunctional and causing stress to CONNECTIVE TISSUE. Supplements that help muscles repair faster will not help ligaments, tendons and cartilage repair faster.

The same goes with your shoulder. If you are taking a bad stroke because you are not in position, it still is not just the feet. That is the bad stroke as well.

Knee pain and shoulder pain are not normal muscle repair from work. They are repetitive stress from dysfunctional movement patterns.

My guess is you should do some video of yourself for you to watch (not for the forum) so you can see if you can figure out what mechanics are causing the damage. You could show a coach as well to ask.

But stress in knees and shoulder are not related to the kinds of tissue repair that occur in a workout where someone has good biomechanics. Strengthening muscles is very different than damaging connective tissue in joints. And tissue like ligaments and tendons take VERY LONG to heal because they have very little vascular flow. Cartilage takes enough longer than ligaments and tendons that a doctor will just simplify and say that cartilage does not repair. And from a functional standpoint, that may as well be true.

As we get older these kinds of tissue take longer to repair. And starting at about 30, when you damage ligaments, tendons and cartilage, as they do "repair" they also tend to ossify. That means that small amounts of bone grow where tendon used to be.

If you were talking about muscle soreness, this would not be an issue. But you seem to be referring to joint damage and trying to keep the conversation on muscle repair as though the joint damage could possibly be related to muscle repair.

So, I would say, you need to look at footage to see how you are damaging your knees and shoulder so you can correct the dysfunctional movement patterns.

I am 53. I can play for 5-6 hours 5-6 days in a row and not feel more than mild muscle soreness in my thighs. Pain in my knees would be a red flag I was doing something wrong. Even anabolic steroids would not protect you from that. :)
 
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Sorry to sound so dramatic. But if you leave that alone and keep thinking it is just something that will get better, it is likely you will end up with a far worse repetitive stress issue for your knees and shoulder.

Understood. I really don't want to get a long-term injury. So thanks for the warning. I'm definitely going to get to the bottom of this issue.
 
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I had similar problems in the knee, and it’s likely you have a bit of PFS (patellar femoral syndrome) due to overuse. Try to strengthen your vastus medialis (the inner thigh) by doing more leg work in the gym if you can through exercises like single leg extensions with progressive overload (slowly increase the weight) that should help your tendon endure more weight and give you stronger legs as well. As for shoulder my guess would be a rotator cuff issue, but im not a physio (at least not yet ;)) so i cant say for sure but if the pain gets to a point where it interferes with your daily life, i would see a doctor/physio and get checked on the issues you mentioned. :)
 
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For the knees i recommend switching out the insoles in your shoes to something with good cushioning. Rotating shoes/insoles each day is also a pretty good idea. Keep the insoles soft and fresh to minimize knee impact.

As far as the shoulder, that might be a technique issue.
 
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I had similar problems in the knee, and it’s likely you have a bit of PFS (patellar femoral syndrome) due to overuse. Try to strengthen your vastus medialis (the inner thigh)

I know the intention is good. But diagnosing someone with something because you had it is a bit risky. Diagnosing someone over the internet is just as risky.

Based on what has been said so far, we don’t know if there is any injury at all. All we have is a vague description.

Patellar tracking issues are common. But I could think of dozens of knee issues that could come from the kinds of movements that happen in TT.

But if his knees feel okay after several days of rest and simply feel worse as he practices more, it is very likely there is no condition yet.

The issue would still be correcting dysfunctional movement patterns that are causing pain and could lead to injury in the future.

Which is why him looking at footage and seeing if he can figure out what he is doing that is bothering the knee is the first step.

Even if it was a patellar tracking issue, strengthening the inner aspect of the quad but continuing the dysfunctional movement pattern would ultimately not help. You would still need to eliminate the movement that was causing the tracking problem.


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I had real bad knee pain about the time I went to Korea after 15 months in Iraq in the Army... years later, I see my problem was nutrition and rest. The kind of stuff you got fed to you over there was incubated in a chem factory instead of grown in nature. You had tons of free sugar laden energy drink laying around too. That added up to a lot of bodily disorder... and when I got to Korea and could play TT, I already had creeky knees and it didn't get better right away. I did all the patella tracker, rest, stretches and whatever I could, but those were not the cause... took me a while to discover it.

Eventually, all that raw garlic, onions, green lettuce, green onions and elimination of added sugar helped me.

In thee short run (also long run), paying attention to rest, hydration, and nutrition help a lot. Everyone hass unique demands, but if you do not give the body what it needs, and overload it with sugars, processed flours/refined carbs, needless added chems, and crazy bad modified oils... you are gunna get what you are asking for - disease, discomfort and early death.

If you have back to back to back days and really go all out and over-tax the body... an EPSON SALT bath is a good help to muscles and body. You will be soaking in sulfur and magnesium... particularly the magnesium is for cramp treatment, prevention, and recovery. Taking a weak 125 mg Zinc, Calcium, Magnesium pill (enough to get 500 mg) a few times spread out before during and after your intense work will really help out the muscles. Everyone seems to know about banana during work, but that and a lot of water flush out minerals, and many are deficient in magnesium and cramp up under long duration heavy load work.

Your basic vitamins are important too, you should get them from nutrition, but our modern foods grown in USA are amazingly lacking nutrition from terrible soil they are grown in like a factory... so you gotta get them outside your food, but you gotta understand how and what and how much gets absorbed. Vitamin C and D are paramount, but just those will crash you. Your body can take a lot more C than you think, particularly when you are weak or have a virus. Raw onions are best, but a few grams of pure C a day are great too.

OP, Ur weight is killing you. I know, I have a similar weight for height, 5-7 at 100 kg... I have to be precise with my chain movements, and precise on my feet impact or I could tear some stuff up.

Like Carl was saying about tendons... they do not get blood flow like muscles... very little and they do not stay flexible after so many years with crappy nutrition practices. You can fix nutrition. You can also be outside in sun a lot and walk around. You can get laser photon treatment. You can get devices that kickout near-infrared and far-infrared waves... those stimulate more blood flow, so does massage, so does sitting in sauna. That stuff will help recovery.

I be real blunt here, you cannot fix stupid, but duct tape can muffle the sound. I have been there and done that going down that road and can this to you.

Even moar than Der_Echte, Carl has seen tens of thousands over the years and gives professional advice, which some listen, some discard. He knows who listens and who becomes effective, it is part of Carl's profession.
 
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If your pain is after too much TT, use cold on your knees to reduce inflammation. As you stated yourself, your weight is an issue. It adds a lot of extra load on your knees. (For 180cm standard weight should be around 80 kg, so...). For supplements use omega3, glucosamine, chondroitin. Sleep won't hurt either. These are general recommendations to follow.

Stretching is a good thing, but you should know what to stretch and what not. Cause some muscles can be tight, some can be overstretched, so by stretching, you can make more harm. A very common issue if your knee hurts is tight IT band syndrome. You should feel pain on the outer sides of the knees. It is easy to check if you have tight IT band. If your knee pains persist after decreasing load on them a more precise description of your knee pain is needed. Is it under the kneecap, the outer side of the knee, do you feel discomfort in a knee when bending, do you feel pain when you press sides of the knee with fingers, do you feel it's getting stuck.. etc. But the best advice is go and see a doctor...
 
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I've noticed that when transferring weight, I'm not turning my feet a lot, which I think is the main culprit for the knee pain.

I think you have at least an idea of what might be causing the problem. If your torso is turning at all and your feet stay planted and do not pivot with the turn, this can damage the menisci (singular: meniscus; little horse shoe shaped cartilage in knees), it can damage the anterior and/or posterior cruciate ligaments, it can damage the medial and lateral collateral ligaments, and it could (less likely) cause patellar tracking issues as suggested above.

If you are the size, weight and fitness level you say and you are trying to play like Ma Long, it is very likely you are swinging too hard and without enough control. If you are swinging hard, torquing your knees (because feet are planted) and out of position (so, reaching for the ball), it is no wonder your shoulder hurts some of the time as well. I won’t go into what could be happening there. [Feel free to read up on shoulder joint anatomy and how the rotator cuff muscles have the dual functions of muscle and ligament].

The biggest thing I see from this thread is comments from people who are well meaning and hoping to help you. But who simply don’t know what could be going on. And yet they seem to have suggestions anyway. Beware of that. Well meant information that is about something unrelated to you can be dangerous.

This is your best bet:

It's a good idea to record myself from the side angle to see if I do anything crazy during the game. I'm gonna show it to the coach as well. Thanks for the suggestion!

It is much more likely you will figure out what is going on if you try and look to see. Otherwise you are shooting blind.

There is nothing wrong with improving diet, taking supplements, doing acupuncture, getting a massage, using a body roller, strengthening your quads....but none of these address these two issues:

1) Twisting your knees IS BAD for your knees.
2) Swinging too hard and out of control when out of position is bad for knees, lower back and shoulder.

For you to recover from the pain you feel from TT, you will likely need to improve the biomechanics of your stroke which will definitely improve your technique and skill level.

Even if the course of treatment for a condition is appropriate, if the offending action that caused the condition is not eliminated, the course of treatment will not be successful.

Simply put: if I bang my head against a wall and take ibuprofen for the pain, the pain won’t go away if I continue banging my head against the wall. [emoji2] For the pain to go away, I will also need to stop banging my head against the wall. [emoji2]

I do hope this sorts out for you ASAP.


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Sleep and rest, some reasonable meals, that is all you need.

You rest properly between your major exertions and that is how you get stronger.
 
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Thanks for sharing your experience. I'm trying life-style changes that would basically accomplish what you said, namely reducing the weight and trying to eat healthy. I've been partly successful in that, by which I mean I improved my bio markers by a lot. However, the whole procedure takes time. It's not like I'm gonna have a six pack in six months. :D While this is happening, I want to avoid injuries at all costs, since that would hinder my program greatly. That's why I take heed of Carl's, yours' and others' advice. ;)

I had real bad knee pain about the time I went to Korea after 15 months in Iraq in the Army... years later, I see my problem was nutrition and rest. The kind of stuff you got fed to you over there was incubated in a chem factory instead of grown in nature. You had tons of free sugar laden energy drink laying around too. That added up to a lot of bodily disorder... and when I got to Korea and could play TT, I already had creeky knees and it didn't get better right away. I did all the patella tracker, rest, stretches and whatever I could, but those were not the cause... took me a while to discover it.

Eventually, all that raw garlic, onions, green lettuce, green onions and elimination of added sugar helped me.

In thee short run (also long run), paying attention to rest, hydration, and nutrition help a lot. Everyone hass unique demands, but if you do not give the body what it needs, and overload it with sugars, processed flours/refined carbs, needless added chems, and crazy bad modified oils... you are gunna get what you are asking for - disease, discomfort and early death.

If you have back to back to back days and really go all out and over-tax the body... an EPSON SALT bath is a good help to muscles and body. You will be soaking in sulfur and magnesium... particularly the magnesium is for cramp treatment, prevention, and recovery. Taking a weak 125 mg Zinc, Calcium, Magnesium pill (enough to get 500 mg) a few times spread out before during and after your intense work will really help out the muscles. Everyone seems to know about banana during work, but that and a lot of water flush out minerals, and many are deficient in magnesium and cramp up under long duration heavy load work.

Your basic vitamins are important too, you should get them from nutrition, but our modern foods grown in USA are amazingly lacking nutrition from terrible soil they are grown in like a factory... so you gotta get them outside your food, but you gotta understand how and what and how much gets absorbed. Vitamin C and D are paramount, but just those will crash you. Your body can take a lot more C than you think, particularly when you are weak or have a virus. Raw onions are best, but a few grams of pure C a day are great too.

OP, Ur weight is killing you. I know, I have a similar weight for height, 5-7 at 100 kg... I have to be precise with my chain movements, and precise on my feet impact or I could tear some stuff up.

Like Carl was saying about tendons... they do not get blood flow like muscles... very little and they do not stay flexible after so many years with crappy nutrition practices. You can fix nutrition. You can also be outside in sun a lot and walk around. You can get laser photon treatment. You can get devices that kickout near-infrared and far-infrared waves... those stimulate more blood flow, so does massage, so does sitting in sauna. That stuff will help recovery.

I be real blunt here, you cannot fix stupid, but duct tape can muffle the sound. I have been there and done that going down that road and can this to you.

Even moar than Der_Echte, Carl has seen tens of thousands over the years and gives professional advice, which some listen, some discard. He knows who listens and who becomes effective, it is part of Carl's profession.
 
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I think you have at least an idea of what might be causing the problem. If your torso is turning at all and your feet stay planted and do not pivot with the turn, this can damage the menisci (singular: meniscus; little horse shoe shaped cartilage in knees), it can damage the anterior and/or posterior cruciate ligaments, it can damage the medial and lateral collateral ligaments, and it could (less likely) cause patellar tracking issues as suggested above.

If you are the size, weight and fitness level you say and you are trying to play like Ma Long, it is very likely you are swinging too hard and without enough control. If you are swinging hard, torquing your knees (because feet are planted) and out of position (so, reaching for the ball), it is no wonder your shoulder hurts some of the time as well. I won’t go into what could be happening there. [Feel free to read up on shoulder joint anatomy and how the rotator cuff muscles have the dual functions of muscle and ligament].

The biggest thing I see from this thread is comments from people who are well meaning and hoping to help you. But who simply don’t know what could be going on. And yet they seem to have suggestions anyway. Beware of that. Well meant information that is about something unrelated to you can be dangerous.

This is your best bet:



It is much more likely you will figure out what is going on if you try and look to see. Otherwise you are shooting blind.

There is nothing wrong with improving diet, taking supplements, doing acupuncture, getting a massage, using a body roller, strengthening your quads....but none of these address these two issues:

1) Twisting your knees IS BAD for your knees.
2) Swinging too hard and out of control when out of position is bad for knees, lower back and shoulder.

For you to recover from the pain you feel from TT, you will likely need to improve the biomechanics of your stroke which will definitely improve your technique and skill level.

Even if the course of treatment for a condition is appropriate, if the offending action that caused the condition is not eliminated, the course of treatment will not be successful.


This week I'm gonna dial it down a bit and try to improve the mechanics of my strokes, and I'll report the improvements. I'll also record a match to see. I have a hunch that in training I'm doing more or less the correct strokes, yet in the games I tend to do crazy stupid stunts that are really not necessary. That's why usually the competition games take a heavier toll than training, even though the training is way more intense.


Simply put: if I bang my head against a wall and take ibuprofen for the pain, the pain won’t go away if I continue banging my head against the wall. [emoji2] For the pain to go away, I will also need to stop banging my head against the wall. [emoji2]

There's always the opioids. :D
 
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No sympathy from me. It only gets harder as you get older.
My football coach would say get tough or die.
I bet the CNT players practice much more.
I play 4 times a week for 1.5 to 2 hours. We don't waste time picking up balls. Usually we only need to pick up balls once half way and at the end. I bet I am older and heavier that you. I do other exercise like walking, biking or rowing on the week ends. This is good because I can exercise a full range of motions while watching a movie on the TV.


Do not eat anything fatty before a tournament.


I play table tennis therefore I am.
I play table tennis for the health of it.


I am 43. Playing around 1.5 hours 3 times a week. doing a little bit of light cardio.

I agree with you, water rower is great machine
 
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Most important things are sleep, protein (1g/kg body weight), and anti inflammatory foods (fish, berries, veggies)

If you have time you can buy a foam roller and massage your body.

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Deleted my post - Didn't see Carl's post on page 2 asking your age, weight, etc.

He hit the nail on the head.

As someone with a tricky right knee, i feel your pain. You definitely have to play & workout with caution on those problem areas knowing they're more prone to injury.

This is not a fun nor easy answer but if you're 31 (still plenty young) and 260 lbs, that's just too much stress on those knees. Need to drop a few LBS. You'll play better, you'll be healthier and your knees will thank you. ;) Best of luck. Now go get it.
 
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