Dwell Time .....

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In this case flexibility is softness pretty much.

If the ball penetrates 1cm you dont define the dwell time in actual time because if it takes 4 seconds you lost all spin potential and speed.
 
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So many different factors affecting the outcome of a shot.

Carl began to discuss one of my all time favorites... control of grip pressure at and during impact.

So many players get a lot of the different aspects of a stroke, like the positioning, leverage, and bio mechanics... and totally disregard the grip pressure.

The variance in grip pressure can cause the sound stroke to be a dead weak ball or a screamer that put Harimoto back to screaming school.

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In this case flexibility is softness pretty much.

If the ball penetrates 1cm you dont define the dwell time in actual time because if it takes 4 seconds you lost all spin potential and speed.

Nope. You are mixing two different concepts. Flex is how much the blade bends in its longitudinal plane when a load is applied, or in another words stiffness. Softness is how much the blade distorts perpendicular to that same plane when a load is applied.
 
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And a lot of what people feel as dwell time is probably the rubber from the topsheet stretching, distorting and then rebounding as the sponge compresses and then springs back during contact.

Wait, so this doesn't count?

I can live without the notion itself, but I always assumed dwell time was the delta between the first moment of impact and the time the ball leaves. Of course we're talking milli-fractions of peanuts, but regardless, shouldn't that include rubber and sponge deformation as well?
 
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Wait, so this doesn't count?

I can live without the notion itself, but I always assumed dwell time was the delta between the first moment of impact and the time the ball leaves. Of course we're talking milli-fractions of peanuts, but regardless, shouldn't that include rubber and sponge deformation as well?

Of course it counts. I am just saying that what you feel when you feel longer dwell time is that distortion and rebound of the topsheet and the compression and rebound of the sponge.

I love that feeling. That is one of the reasons I play is to feel that on my loops.

And if direct contact where the ball bangs straight into the blade face is about .5 milliseconds and holding the ball on the sponge while looping is only actually 3 milliseconds, then that would be 600% more dwell time. 600% is an okay stat. [emoji2]

But it is worth knowing what you are actually feeling. Because our hands can not distinguish between the sensation of .5 milliseconds and 3 milliseconds. I believe it is still too short an interval for the hand to distinguish.

And the vibration from the blade caused by the contact always lasts way longer than the contact.

Between brokenball and Baal we could get some good info on the subject.

Brokenball could surely give us the info on the physics. Baal could fill in the info on sensory perceptions.



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Its one of the more advanced concepts ... I will tell you the negative side of it for beginners, if they don't master the timing of the grip pressure change , it results into untimely tightening of the body and slow causes issues with the form where they are not able to generate enough whip . You have to admit , you yourself are quite advanced in terms of technique and normally grip pressure changes are introduced into a players arsenal when they are at an advanced semi amateur level


So many different factors affecting the outcome of a shot.

Carl began to discuss one of my all time favorites... control of grip pressure at and during impact.

So many players get a lot of the different aspects of a stroke, like the positioning, leverage, and bio mechanics... and totally disregard the grip pressure.

The variance in grip pressure can cause the sound stroke to be a dead weak ball or a screamer that put Harimoto back to screaming school.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
 
says I would recommend all wood. Samsonov Alpha sgs is the...
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Nope. You are mixing two different concepts. Flex is how much the blade bends in its longitudinal plane when a load is applied, or in another words stiffness. Softness is how much the blade distorts perpendicular to that same plane when a load is applied.

I'm not confusing them, because as I said, in this case they are the same thing.

You're thinking of softness as a pillow that you sit on and it stays dented. In this case it is not the same idea.
 
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my say on dwell time, comparing Yinhe T11+ and Stiga allround classic blades:

I used Hurricane 3 neo on T11+ on FH, typical tacky chinese rubber meant for top-spin play. However, seems like it didn't matter as the blade was too stiff , light to begin with. And the worst part was, I bought this setup out of sheer temptation expecting to learn a controlled top-spin play. All I could do was smash the high ball, that's it. Such setup wasted my time as a developing player as I've not felt the ball properly.

Later on, one of the players recommended to go with a stiga allround classic with Yasaka Mark5 on both sides. Much better setup for learning loops , slow but controlled play overall.

After an year or so, I've switched back to T11+ just to get the grip of it. Still, zero possibility on loops. But, I felt the ball atleast on BH banana flicks,returns and were much faster loaded with spin. I couldn't do such flicks with the same blade prior using stiga allround. So playing with an allround blade helped me to even feel a stiff blade , atleast to some portion of the gameplay.

So the moral of the story is that I've learned about ball dwell time in a real-time scenario. Probably, someone else might like stiff blades with no feeling on the ball. But that 'someone' would have learnt how to spin the ball even with a bad setup , and confident enough to even feel the dwell time with stiff setup. When you get to this point, where you can feel the ball no matter what, I believe you'd not be concerned with dwell time anymore.
 
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I'm not confusing them, because as I said, in this case they are the same thing.

You're thinking of softness as a pillow that you sit on and it stays dented. In this case it is not the same idea.

No, they are not the same. Also, i'm not thinking that because that's not what happens.

This is an image from ttgearlab, this is what he uses to calculate the indices, and also what i use to predict the behaviour of the blades i make, based on the numerical analysis. The primary deflection is the first mode or the bending mode, it relates to the stiffness of the blade. The central deflection is the membrane mode, it relates to the hardness of the blade. Both of these contribute to the dwell.

howtomeasure_fig03.jpg
 
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Ugh no man, I didn't say they're the same thing, I said that for this purpose it doesn't matter. The magnitude of the deflection doesn't necessarily correlate with the rapidity of the deflection. That's the difference between hardness and flexibility. It sounds to me like a confusion of the functions... And for the idea of 'dwell time' the 'time' part is not the issue but rather the degree to which the ball deforms the rubber/blade. That, only incidentally, takes more or less time depending on the quality of the material and the stroke.
 
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Its one of the more advanced concepts ... I will tell you the negative side of it for beginners, if they don't master the timing of the grip pressure change , it results into untimely tightening of the body and slow causes issues with the form where they are not able to generate enough whip . You have to admit , you yourself are quite advanced in terms of technique and normally grip pressure changes are introduced into a players arsenal when they are at an advanced semi amateur level
Yes and no being advanced. Yes and no being a detriment being introduced while still a beginner. Yes and no ought to be taught while still growing.

It is both simple and complex how grip pressure affects a shot. It is only one of the factors, but a real huge one.

Soft grip pressure on a block "eats" spin and makes it real easy to cover a heavy topspin and block it with control off the bounce.

Soft grip pressure allows you to go through over the ball on a short stroke to counter heavy topspin off the bounce.

Hard grip pressure allows you to punch through a higher bouncing loop to keep it on the table fast.

Grip pressure that starts out soft and loose, then right at impact becomes real firm... that allows you to use a real compact stroke and Rambo counter the loop back to where it came from. TTmonster has seen me do this on bh vs advanced players and really discourage them from looping to my bh. My stroke is not even a half foot, but it is a rocket return.

I think it is important for a coach to show a player how to block soft and firm... how to do it... when to impact the ball... this is a beginner's skill in my view. Yet, so many players didn't learn this. So... maybe it is an advanced concept... I still think simplified soft and firm pressure ought to be a beginner's skill.

Over tight grip pressure can sap power and spin from a stroke... yes it can. Still, being tight in other places is where guys lose it. Many guys have a primal urge to tighten the shoulder and arm together, then try to use the muscles on the back of shoulder to make the power.

Think... player could stay loose and initially generated needed kinetic energy... but before the arm whip, locks up the upper body. This fails to transfer the energy to the ball by tightening up the arm shoulder... then the player has to regenerate the power... using back of shoulder or worse... the front of shoulder.

Guys trying to be explosive at the end of that kind of epic fail are just asking to get a torn up rotator cuff.

Yet, the advanced players who have learned to efficiently use the the legs and waist to generate good kinetic energy, then amplify increase it with loose muscles activated in sequence with the right leverage and timing of each part... then form up grip right at impact... these grown guys and gals can really play the smack down on a ball... and do it with what looks like half their potential explosive power.

That is why I think it is basic simple stuff and also advanced at the same time.

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I have very frequently advocated what patelaaaaaaaaaa did... go to a medium speed blade that loops... then go back to your older faster blade later...

Every time I do that, I have a new dimension or strengthened aspects of my play.

3 months using the Lissom has always done me right to go back to main blade.

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I went through 4 years in Korean amateur tt clubs and coach was ex pro...

I absolutely NEVER got taught about how grip affects the ball.

I absolutely NEVER got taught how to be loose and activate muscles in the right sequence using leverage and stability...

I could think of a whole passel of what ought to be basic stuff I never learned from ex pro coach.

I could also name a bunch of basic stuff I have seen USA coaches not ever cover with u2000 level players.

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Well to be fair the poster only asked what blade will have the best grip. He didn't so much ask for a clarification on the concept itself.
I guess you don't need the explanation so much when the effect is so obvious to anyone who played TT beyond toy-store 'rackets'
 
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Best grip: I will interpret that as the blade that grabs the ball best. I think that is what you mean. It is not what OP asked. But it may be a better question.

If that was the question the clear answer is an old, classic Joyner Hinoki or a Klampar Hinoki would grab the ball better than anything. These blades really grab the ball harder than anything else I have felt.

Hinoki grabs the ball amazingly. And those thin, flexy 5 ply Hinoki blades that were made in the 1980s and nobody makes today (not sexy enough), grab the ball better than anything ever.


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Well to be fair the poster only asked what blade will have the best grip. He didn't so much ask for a clarification on the concept itself.
I guess you don't need the explanation so much when the effect is so obvious to anyone who played TT beyond toy-store 'rackets'
Well to be fair... the poster asked:
Hi,
I just have one question!
Which Blade have the Longest Dwell time ??
Cheers!

I think you'll find that's not the same thing as "what blade will have the best grip".
 
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No, they are not the same. Also, i'm not thinking that because that's not what happens.

This is an image from ttgearlab, this is what he uses to calculate the indices, and also what i use to predict the behaviour of the blades i make, based on the numerical analysis. The primary deflection is the first mode or the bending mode, it relates to the stiffness of the blade. The central deflection is the membrane mode, it relates to the hardness of the blade. Both of these contribute to the dwell.

View attachment 17694

Yes, and this reminds me yje conversation about the corelation between frequency pitch and speed.
There I mentioned there are blades with lower pitch on weaker impact and hyperbolically growing pitch on stronger impacts.
The dwell depends not only on the amplitude of the deflection, but on the frequency of vibration, and a lower frequency will make it easier to prolong the dwell. Another factor are the rubbers - here many people say that softer rubbers provide longer dwell. Well, in some cases it may be true, and in some it may be not. Softer rubbers with greater trampoline will have less dwell than softer rubbers with less trampoline. And with weaker shots they may have less dwell even from harder rubbers with less trampoline. In my case the above mentioned blade didn't provide its dwell capabilities at close distance with softer and repulsive rubbers, but worked well with harder ones. So every different combination blade+rubbers will have different dwell, providing different feel. One may not think about "dwell", and we usually speak about "feel". While dwell depends on the characteristics of the bat, in fact it depends more on the players' style and his synergy with the bat. A blade with the best dwell in particular speed range may not be the best for a particular style and particular rubbers. So I think it would be better to concentrate in building a bat with the best feeling and comfort in play, giving best confidence. Taking and carrying the ball with prolonged dwell would come with technique development.
 
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I'm not confusing them, because as I said, in this case they are the same thing.

You're thinking of softness as a pillow that you sit on and it stays dented. In this case it is not the same idea.

Ugh no man, I didn't say they're the same thing, I said that for this purpose it doesn't matter. The magnitude of the deflection doesn't necessarily correlate with the rapidity of the deflection. That's the difference between hardness and flexibility. It sounds to me like a confusion of the functions... And for the idea of 'dwell time' the 'time' part is not the issue but rather the degree to which the ball deforms the rubber/blade. That, only incidentally, takes more or less time depending on the quality of the material and the stroke.

You actually said they are the same thing in this case, which i was trying to refute. But ok, I'm not going to try to change your mind, agree to disagree ;)
 
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Yes, and this reminds me yje conversation about the corelation between frequency pitch and speed.
There I mentioned there are blades with lower pitch on weaker impact and hyperbolically growing pitch on stronger impacts.
The dwell depends not only on the amplitude of the deflection, but on the frequency of vibration, and a lower frequency will make it easier to prolong the dwell. Another factor are the rubbers - here many people say that softer rubbers provide longer dwell. Well, in some cases it may be true, and in some it may be not. Softer rubbers with greater trampoline will have less dwell than softer rubbers with less trampoline. And with weaker shots they may have less dwell even from harder rubbers with less trampoline. In my case the above mentioned blade didn't provide its dwell capabilities at close distance with softer and repulsive rubbers, but worked well with harder ones. So every different combination blade+rubbers will have different dwell, providing different feel. One may not think about "dwell", and we usually speak about "feel". While dwell depends on the characteristics of the bat, in fact it depends more on the players' style and his synergy with the bat. A blade with the best dwell in particular speed range may not be the best for a particular style and particular rubbers. So I think it would be better to concentrate in building a bat with the best feeling and comfort in play, giving best confidence. Taking and carrying the ball with prolonged dwell would come with technique development.

Langel, your reasoning is correct but you are missing one thing. The pitch measured on the bounce test only gives you the 6th mode of vibration, the membrane mode. The others modes are not heard but you feel them in your hand. So, there is a correlation between pitch and speed, and that is proven in the several articles i showed, but it is not the only factor.

But i agree with you, after i built a few blades, and successfully predicting their frequencies, i found that the ones with higher frequency weren't necessarily the fastest. The first mode (bending) is very important and what gives that upper gear when you strike the ball hard, basically the flex. The 6th mode (membrane) tells you how hard the blade is. But it is the correlation between these two aspects that defines the performance of the blade in the different speed ranges.
 
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