Can the dying process of the sponge can affect performance of same gen tensors?

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Hi all,

When I was younger, my coaches always glued me the red rubber on FH. But I always turned red rubber to my BH, as I felt the black one was grippier. And some time after that's what I've seen in forums, that the red topsheet suffers a dying process that makes the topsheet loose some grippiness. But what about the different color sponges? For example 3 Tensor rubbers from the same generation, with the same sponge hardness, one is red(255,0,0), other is green(0,255,0) and the other is blue(0,0,255). Could this dying proccess affect also the rubbers even if they are the same generation tensors from different brands(I presume that same gen tensors are equal with just different branding)?

Best Regards,
Eduardo
 
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No one? Thought this could be an interesting toping to discuss x)

It might be. I cannot say, having played with green (Rasant Grip), white and yellow (Gewo rubbers) I would not know how to single out the single factor of sponge dye.
 
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Apropos where is this urban legend about red topsheet being worse/dying faster coming from? Any real data, source?

Well, for me it's enough feel the red less grippier in my youth before searching in the net, but you can see here https://pingsunday.com/difference-red-black-table-tennis-rubbers/, though that was already more than discussed, I'm just asking if the same thing applies to the sponges. Didn't said it was worse, it depends, it could suit you better, it's a matter of taste :p
 
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It might be. I cannot say, having played with green (Rasant Grip), white and yellow (Gewo rubbers) I would not know how to single out the single factor of sponge dye.

Never played with same gen tensors from different brands too :/
 

JST

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Well, for me it's enough feel the red less grippier in my youth before searching in the net, but you can see here https://pingsunday.com/difference-red-black-table-tennis-rubbers/, though that was already more than discussed, I'm just asking if the same thing applies to the sponges. Didn't said it was worse, it depends, it could suit you better, it's a matter of taste :p

Well I do respect Em in some posts but this brings no evidence. Why all Chinese brands use the same red and black pigment but all other factories use different so "dying" process of JPN and EUR rubbers is basically equal for both colors (as Em states)? Why would then people like Timo care which one comes where and why would he switch from red on FH (which is how he played since he was 5-y-o kid up to 2008 when Tenergy was introduced) to black on FH?

Don't get me wrong, I understand that red and black topsheets can have different tackiness for the same brand and type of rubber, I'm just trying to separate urban legends from facts. There are so many factors starting from FH/BH dominance (I assume that rubber on your stronger side will need to change much earlier, at least that was my experience in Sriver era) up to "Ma Long has black H3 on FH so it must be better then red" (even his H3 rubber is way different from whatever commercial/provincial/wonnabenational version we buy in the shop).

So unfortunately your feelings from like 10 years ago or more (I assume from one specific rubber vendor/type/thickness, maybe two?) and Em's post doesn't bring any real light into this. I will keep searching;)
 
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Well I do respect Em in some posts but this brings no evidence. Why all Chinese brands use the same red and black pigment but all other factories use different so "dying" process of JPN and EUR rubbers is basically equal for both colors (as Em states)? Why would then people like Timo care which one comes where and why would he switch from red on FH (which is how he played since he was 5-y-o kid up to 2008 when Tenergy was introduced) to black on FH?

Don't get me wrong, I understand that red and black topsheets can have different tackiness for the same brand and type of rubber, I'm just trying to separate urban legends from facts. There are so many factors starting from FH/BH dominance (I assume that rubber on your stronger side will need to change much earlier, at least that was my experience in Sriver era) up to "Ma Long has black H3 on FH so it must be better then red" (even his H3 rubber is way different from whatever commercial/provincial/wonnabenational version we buy in the shop).

So unfortunately your feelings from like 10 years ago or more (I assume from one specific rubber vendor/type/thickness, maybe two?) and Em's post doesn't bring any real light into this. I will keep searching;)
I'm not saying that I use black on forehand because ma long uses and so I'll use because it will be better. I felt black one(remember used tenergy 64 or tenergy 05 in that time, was just after the speed glue era, as far as I remeber) much grippier, and everyone in my club red on FH. I think I even didn't knew Ma Long in that time, I just searched in internet some time after and I've saw people that felt the same, I don't know how to prove it well, but maybe the way they turn the black rubber into red makes lose some grippiness idk, but I see you agree with me then about this, so we can state it as a fact! :) but a interesting thing is that the color of the sponge could also have some influences, that could explain the difference between tensors, idk

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One part of the mystery I'm trying to understand is following: why would be in Sriver/Bryce era the red/black difference unseen (or rather if seen then all European and JP players were using red on FH as far as I know) and then suddenly it changed within few months?

Story about Chinese tacky rubbers is kind of completely separate line, because they plaid historically from 90s with black on FH (but you can see on rare youtube videos from 80s that even best Chines players at that time used red on FH pretty often). So I'm still keeping several question opened: how are Tenergies different that so many pros started to favor black on FH immediately after launch? Is that effect still valid in 2018? Are Chinese tacky rubbers like Hurricane and Skyline really so much different between red and black? And isn't it basically because no one would even plaid with black version on BH so they don't need to produce two equal products and they simply let the people to choose the right color if it matters to them? Btw. how is this in-line with LARC and ITTF certification (that concentrates on topsheets specifically and always lists both colors so I assume they both must pass and they should be somehow consistent, or isn't the consistency part of the test?) Is this really brand and rubber type specific or are there some general rules (like "all Chinese black tacky rubbers are spinier/faster/more durable/whatever...")? If so then what is the fundamental root cause (do the manufactures source key ingredients at the single source)? And after that we can move to topics like durability....;)

Sorry for stealing the thread but I was so excited that I might get closer to cracking this little mystery;) Back to the sponge effect as you requested initially.
 
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Alright. Here are a few issues as I see them. I use rubbers I like. I don't really care if the dying process of the sponge or topsheet causes the rubber to be a shade different. If I like the rubber, I use it. If I don't, I don't.

When you buy 10 rubbers, say, Tenergy 05, or MXP, say they are all black, they will not all be the same. Say you got them hot off the press the day after they were made, they still will not all be the same. But when we buy them, we do not really know how long they were sitting on the shelf. An older rubber will feel different than one hot off the press. Rubber deteriorates over time. Think of an old rubber band that has been sitting on a shelf for years. You stretch it and it tears because it has lost too much elasticity. Over time table tennis rubbers lose some of their elasticity also. The reason is oxidization of the rubber molecules.

But then you also have rubbers that are slightly different weights. Those 10 brand new, off the press Teneregys, they would all be slightly different weights. In the end, you use what you get.

Now, in the 1970s or 80s, the technology may not have been good enough for a TT company to mix the formulas and dyes so that red and black were the same. Some companies, like the Chinese companies, may have used more simple methods and not cared as much if the red and black were very close to the same.

These days, if a company wants to, they can make it so red and black topsheets and different colored sponges, play the same regardless of the color of the dyes. If you feel a slight difference, it could be because of the dye or because of one of those other factors like weight or how long the rubber was sitting on the shelf.

But in the end, when you use a rubber, you get used to it. So, even if you had H3 on FH and T05 on BH--which are very different rubbers--you would get used to H3 for FH and T05 for BH no matter how different they are.

So, from my perspective, I am not sure we can say too much about the color of dye in the sponge since there are so many variables that we are not taking into account. And, because, if the companies want to have the dyes cause an effect they can. And if the companies want to have different dyes not change the playing characteristics, the chemistry and technology is there for them to tweak the formula so it is pretty close to exactly how they want it.

And I am not sure any of us has the tools to really test large enough samples to come up with valid results anyway.
 
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Don't they only make h3 national in black hence the Chinese all use black forehand? Everyone else just copied the trend like choing. I doubt there is a difference between colours of rubbers. I use red as forehand because **** the system.

Only partwise true. Of course there are Red National H3Neos, but the blue sponge only comes with the black rubber.
On the rest i agree.
Nowadays there´s little to no difference between the different topsheet colours
 
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Don't they only make h3 national in black hence the Chinese all use black forehand? Everyone else just copied the trend like choing. I doubt there is a difference between colours of rubbers. I use red as forehand because **** the system.

I don't use because of the CNT, but I don't share the same opinion(Well I don't use red FH since kid, so actually they can be almost equals)I just use because it's my preference since kid.
 
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One part of the mystery I'm trying to understand is following: why would be in Sriver/Bryce era the red/black difference unseen (or rather if seen then all European and JP players were using red on FH as far as I know) and then suddenly it changed within few months?

Story about Chinese tacky rubbers is kind of completely separate line, because they plaid historically from 90s with black on FH (but you can see on rare youtube videos from 80s that even best Chines players at that time used red on FH pretty often). So I'm still keeping several question opened: how are Tenergies different that so many pros started to favor black on FH immediately after launch? Is that effect still valid in 2018? Are Chinese tacky rubbers like Hurricane and Skyline really so much different between red and black? And isn't it basically because no one would even plaid with black version on BH so they don't need to produce two equal products and they simply let the people to choose the right color if it matters to them? Btw. how is this in-line with LARC and ITTF certification (that concentrates on topsheets specifically and always lists both colors so I assume they both must pass and they should be somehow consistent, or isn't the consistency part of the test?) Is this really brand and rubber type specific or are there some general rules (like "all Chinese black tacky rubbers are spinier/faster/more durable/whatever...")? If so then what is the fundamental root cause (do the manufactures source key ingredients at the single source)? And after that we can move to topics like durability....;)

Sorry for stealing the thread but I was so excited that I might get closer to cracking this little mystery;) Back to the sponge effect as you requested initially.

Sorry me, I was talking a bit defensive at first, because I thought that you were kinda "boycott" the thread by saying that was an urban legend, so my apologies JST. :) I don't know in that era because I started to play in late 2007 I think so I didn't use speed glue as I was learning to play. Yeah, even Ma Lin used Globe 999 in Red on FH! I think they have consistency for sure, but the way they make red color and black color is always different. I found this that I saw some time ago, you can find this interesting also! :D

Ive heard in some other forums that black rubbers are the color of the natural rubbers, therefore it is more tacky and soft. Perfect for spinny loop it seems.
The red rubbers had gone through chemical dying, thus is harder and less tacky. Perfect for speed play.

Even though for some products this is true, the manufacturers had tried to lessen the effect of the dying.
Some products (maybe Chinese) still have a remarkably different product of the same name, while the other has taken care of the dying effect.

Hope this helps :D
 
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Alright. Here are a few issues as I see them. I use rubbers I like. I don't really care if the dying process of the sponge or topsheet causes the rubber to be a shade different. If I like the rubber, I use it. If I don't, I don't.

When you buy 10 rubbers, say, Tenergy 05, or MXP, say they are all black, they will not all be the same. Say you got them hot off the press the day after they were made, they still will not all be the same. But when we buy them, we do not really know how long they were sitting on the shelf. An older rubber will feel different than one hot off the press. Rubber deteriorates over time. Think of an old rubber band that has been sitting on a shelf for years. You stretch it and it tears because it has lost too much elasticity. Over time table tennis rubbers lose some of their elasticity also. The reason is oxidization of the rubber molecules.

But then you also have rubbers that are slightly different weights. Those 10 brand new, off the press Teneregys, they would all be slightly different weights. In the end, you use what you get.

Now, in the 1970s or 80s, the technology may not have been good enough for a TT company to mix the formulas and dyes so that red and black were the same. Some companies, like the Chinese companies, may have used more simple methods and not cared as much if the red and black were very close to the same.

These days, if a company wants to, they can make it so red and black topsheets and different colored sponges, play the same regardless of the color of the dyes. If you feel a slight difference, it could be because of the dye or because of one of those other factors like weight or how long the rubber was sitting on the shelf.

But in the end, when you use a rubber, you get used to it. So, even if you had H3 on FH and T05 on BH--which are very different rubbers--you would get used to H3 for FH and T05 for BH no matter how different they are.

So, from my perspective, I am not sure we can say too much about the color of dye in the sponge since there are so many variables that we are not taking into account. And, because, if the companies want to have the dyes cause an effect they can. And if the companies want to have different dyes not change the playing characteristics, the chemistry and technology is there for them to tweak the formula so it is pretty close to exactly how they want it.

And I am not sure any of us has the tools to really test large enough samples to come up with valid results anyway.

Maybe, if the dying process makes the rubber red, them can produce a tackier topsheet, so the red one, as looses tackiness, stays with the same tackiness of the black one :) Yeah, I can admit that we have a psychological factor also, because when we change to new rubbers(of the same model), we know that's a different rubber, and we don't remember the weight of the older rubber. And most people see this on the internet and then play with black on FH because they feel it's better because they see the pro's using it. But I use as a matter of preference, because I really prefer black on FH, I can say I'm not "biased" because of the pros(RSM was my favorite player in that era and he used red on FH so :p ) eheh :p If I saw that on internet before, maybe I would be "biased" too :p
 
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If in your head you are convinced it matters then it matters. So don't worry about it, just go with what you do.
 
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