Li Sun: It's Time to Shift Our Thinking of Ito

This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Sep 2013
7,259
6,230
15,300
Read 3 reviews
@Glaxdu
this is by the way not just my opinion but also the opinion of my coach which is an ex-pro and ex-JNT player.

ZJK is attracting a lot of money from sponsors and it was unimaginable not to line him up. Fact. He had already some embarrassing losses just before Rio to some foreign players. No such thing for XX or FZD.

Mizutani played very well in this Olympics and I'm very happy as I like him very much and was very excited to see him beating Xu Xin live. But I'm sorry, Xu Xin is the better player, its Mizutani's only victory over him, and only victory against a top Chinese in a big event. and if they play again, Mizutani won't win. So we had a combination of Mizutani in the form of his life, and Xu Xin being a bit too cocky, and destiny for once choosing Mizutani who saved match points. Fact.

Now it turned out well for ZJK. He got silver in singles and gold in team. Mission accomplished. But if I was XX or FZD, I'd be very pissed off

I also have lots of former national team member friends, and guess what, they all have different opinion

Yes, politics are always involved
sponsors in your example - CNT don't care to be honest. They won't put up a overaged ZJK for the sake of "money".

My view is FZD, XX, ZJK were of equal risk at that stage, Ma Long was the only "favourite"

never the less, Olympic as I said so many times, is no longer fair to any player in any country.
You can be good enough to win the title, but as the 3rd entry in your country - tough luck
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Dec 2017
56
69
586
I also have lots of former national team member friends, and guess what, they all have different opinion

Yes, politics are always involved
sponsors in your example - CNT don't care to be honest. They won't put up a overaged ZJK for the sake of "money".

My view is FZD, XX, ZJK were of equal risk at that stage, Ma Long was the only "favourite"

never the less, Olympic as I said so many times, is no longer fair to any player in any country.
You can be good enough to win the title, but as the 3rd entry in your country - tough luck

Yes , He is Liu guoliang its not a joke . He chooses the one who is better in game and also in his mental .
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: ping fun
says Shoo...nothing to see here. - zeio
says Shoo...nothing to see here. - zeio
Well-Known Member
Jan 2018
7,228
9,319
18,297
"We trail Japan in innovation. Losing is no accident. The time has come for women’s table tennis to reform" said Yin Xiao in an interview 2 days ago.

For those unfamiliar, Yin Xiao is a former CNT coach, LGL, KLH and ZJK were once under his guidance and he helped ZJK get back to the CNT after being sent back to the provincial team.

aUwK9DF.jpg


http://sports.qq.com/a/20181105/002086.htm
“朱雨玲输给伊藤美诚的这场比赛输得惨,出乎我意料之外。”
“就这场球来说,我们技术是下风,对伊藤美诚新技术我们不适应。反观朱雨玲的球比较平淡,前三板处于下风 ,接发球没有威胁,相持没有质量,正反手进攻没有明显的得分手段。”
“日本女队在对阵我们的比赛中自信心增强了,而因为这一、两年我们在大赛中没有丢掉冠军,整体上还有微弱优势,导致我们危机意识不强。我们教练队伍创新能力在下降,训练方法、手段还相对陈旧,训练质量不是很高。我们采用的训练方法其实如今对手已经掌握,她们还在不断创新,尤其是日本,创新已经走到了前边,技术打法有新东西。”
如今国乒在教练员分配上,还和十几年前一样一个教练管着4、5个队员;反观日乒,主力队员都是好几个教练围着,加上充足的科研和后勤保障人员,如今的崛起绝非一朝一夕。
“我们应该看到危机的严峻性,到了非得动刀子进行改革了,训练手段、技术打法中都要要有创新的东西。现在出现问题并非是坏事,还不到世锦赛和奥运会这样最关键的时刻,但再不动就真的来不及了。”
"The match where Zhu Yuling lost to Ito was terrible. It was beyond my expectation."

"As far as this match is concerned, our techniques are at a disadvantage. We couldn't adapt to Ito's new techniques. In contrast, Zhu Yuling's game is relatively dull. The 3rd ball is trailing. There is no threat in receving. There is no quality in the rally. There's no obvious way to score from either FH or BH."

"The Japanese women's team has gained more self-confidence in the game against us. Because we have not dropped the championship in the majors for the last 2 years, there is still a slight advantage in the overall situation, which has caused us to be less aware of the crisis. The capability of our coaching team in innovating is in decline. The training methods and means are still relatively old, and the training quality is not very high. Our training methods have already been mastered by the opponents. They are still innovating, especially in Japan. They've come to the forefront in innovation, and there are new things in the techniques.”

Nowadays, the distribution of coaches within the CNT is still the same as a decade ago, with a coach assigned 4 or 5 players. In contrast, the main players for the JNT are surrounded by several coaches, plus ample scientific research and logistics support personnel. Their rise is by no means overnight.

"We should see the seriousness of the crisis. It's high time we carried out reforms. We have to innovate the training methods and technical styles. It is not a bad thing for problems to crop up now, seeing it is not the most critical moment like the World Championships and the Olympic Games. However, it’d be too late if we don't make a move now."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yin Xiao actually warned the CNT in another interview during the Asian Games, where Japan opted not to send their best players.

http://static.cdsb.com/micropub/Articles/201808/ff8b45dfe8465eafa1d873ae7d3dabd4.html
成都商报:这次国家乒乓球队顾问组到成都调研对国家队提出了哪些意见和建议?
尹霄:因为这一次参赛我们主要以年轻运动员为主,所以对运动员心理上的掌握非常重要。心理问题是年轻运动员最容易出现的问题,面对大赛压力,年轻运动员应该怎样处理好是关键。

从技战术方面讲,现在我们跟日本队、韩国队的差距并不大,优势很小。由于年轻没有什么经验,如果心理上再出现问题是最容易“翻船”的。这次日本队依然是我们的主要对手,但从阵容上看,韩国队全部派出了主力,应该还要强一点。

成都商报:近两年,日本队的成绩进步明显,这是日本队提高太快还是我们自身的原因?
尹霄:日本队把中国队的技战术、训练方法都“拿过去”后,还很虚心地学习。他们学得很快,并且在学习的基础上还有创新,目前已经初见成效了。现在是我们会的日本队、韩国队都会,彼此根本没有秘密可言。

日本队的创新在前三板、速度及落点上的运用表现得就特别明显。特别是在速度上,现在日本队的进攻型球员在每个环节的处理上,好像都比我们快一些,速度上已经优于我们。这应该是他们的指导思想在指引着他们朝这个方向训练。

虽然目前看来他们的火候还没到,但已有了很明确的方向。如果我们现在还没有危机感,还是按部就班地练过去的东西,没有创新不发展的话,若干年以后我们在技术方面有可能还会落后于对手。

成都商报:乒乓球运动接下来会向什么方向发展?
尹霄:我认为是向着技术更全面更精细这个方向发展,还有就是对身体素质的要求还要增强。

我们并不需要像日本队一样,一味追求“快”,对打法上的要求我们是有弹性的。我们是要有节奏变化的,可快可慢,有快有慢,以快为主,快慢结合。我觉得这些还是我们领先之处。

成都商报:对于对手的冲击和规则、器材的改变,我们现在正在如何调整?
尹霄:我们现在还是主要致力于对塑料球(新球)规律的研究。但是从技战术来看,我们还没有提出特别明确的方向。随着现在的比赛用球变大了,变重了,我们目前还是提出了一些需要加强身体素质方面的指导思想,这也正是我们存在的危机感。
Chengdu Business Daily: What advice and suggestions did the National Table Tennis Team Advisory Group make?
Yin Xiao: Because this time we mainly focus on young athletes, it is very important for the athletes to handle the mentality. Psychological problems are the most common problems for young athletes. In the face of pressure, how young athletes should handle them is the key.

From the technical and tactical point of view, the edge we have over Japan and South Korea is small. Since young people have no experience, it is easiest to get “overthrown” if there is a psychological problem. This time the Japanese team is still our main opponent, but from the lineup, the South Korean team has all sent the main players, and hence should be stronger.

Chengdu Business Daily: In the past two years, the performance of Japan has improved significantly. Is it because the Japanese team is improving too fast or the problem is in ourselves?
Yin Xiao: After the Japanese team "took" the Chinese team's techniques, tactics and training methods, they are learning very humbly. They learn very quickly, and there is innovation on top of that. It has already begun to bear fruit. Now, what we know, Japan and South Korea know as well. There is no secret at all.

Japan's innovation lies 3rd ball, speed and placement. The use of these is particularly prominent. Especially in terms of speed, the Japanese team's offensive players now seem to be faster than us in every aspect of the process, and the speed is better than us. This should be their guiding ideology guiding them to train in this direction.[Note: Yin Xiao is right here. Various JTTA coaches have mentioned speed is their central philosophy since they aren't as big and strong physically.]

Even though it seems that their mastering has not yet matured, there is a clear direction. If we don't have a sense of crisis right now, or if we practice the past in a step-by-step manner, without innovation or development, we may still lag behind our opponents in techniques in the years to come.

Chengdu Business Daily: In what direction will table tennis advance?
Yin Xiao: I think it is developing in the direction of more comprehensive and finer techniques, and there is also a need for stronger physical fitness.

We don't need to pursue "fast" like Japan. We are flexible in the demands of style. We must have pace changes, which could speed up or slow down, could be fast and slow, focus on being fast, and fast and slow combined. I think these are edges we have.

Chengdu Business Daily: How are we adapting to the impact of opponents and changes in rules and equipment?
Yin Xiao: We are still mainly focusing on the study of the behavior of plastic balls. However, from the perspective of technical and tactical skills, we have not yet proposed a particularly clear direction. With the current ball becoming bigger and heavier, we have proposed some guiding ideas, say the need to strengthen our physical fitness. This is also the sense of crisis we have.
 
Last edited:
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Oct 2014
12,288
17,747
44,319
Read 17 reviews
@Glaxdu
this is by the way not just my opinion but also the opinion of my coach which is an ex-pro and ex-JNT player.

ZJK is attracting a lot of money from sponsors and it was unimaginable not to line him up. Fact. He had already some embarrassing losses just before Rio to some foreign players. No such thing for XX or FZD.

Mizutani played very well in this Olympics and I'm very happy as I like him very much and was very excited to see him beating Xu Xin live. But I'm sorry, Xu Xin is the better player, its Mizutani's only victory over him, and only victory against a top Chinese in a big event. and if they play again, Mizutani won't win. So we had a combination of Mizutani in the form of his life, and Xu Xin being a bit too cocky, and destiny for once choosing Mizutani who saved match points. Fact.

Now it turned out well for ZJK. He got silver in singles and gold in team. Mission accomplished. But if I was XX or FZD, I'd be very pissed off

I asked a friend who played and coached internationally whether jt was fair for ZJK to be picked over FZD and XX. My friend said yes that it is fair to pick someone who has won and who knows what it takes to win at the highest levels and at the most stressful moments over people who have never won at all. He said that ZJK plays better in moments of stress and that is why LGL likes him even when he is not in form.

And for the life of me, if you cannot remember the match ZJK played vs JYS; you really should not be commenting on this. That is the March I will always remember when people doubt ZJK as a champion. After watching that match you get a different view of TT. You could see LGL literally scared and you could see ZJK beginning to intimidate his opponent with his play. After that and his recent comeback, ZJK deserves to go out on his own terms and not to be bad mouthed.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Sep 2013
7,259
6,230
15,300
Read 3 reviews
I'm not a ZJK fan, but with respect to him, he was able to go out of sleep mode with one click of a mouse.
I guess that what favoured him over a untested FZD and XX

any ways, funny how it jumped from women players to mens again

in mens, XX might never play olympics
in womens, LSW might never play olympics

its crazy to see they top 5 rated players not allowed a chance in olympics

womens in Jpn is the same thing, Ishikawa could be on the stands with Ito and Hirano as favourites
and yeah, Japan have so many players who deserves to be at the olympics.....
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Mar 2014
1,496
1,756
5,221
Read 3 reviews
I'm not a ZJK fan, but with respect to him, he was able to go out of sleep mode with one click of a mouse.
I guess that what favoured him over a untested FZD and XX

any ways, funny how it jumped from women players to mens again

in mens, XX might never play olympics
in womens, LSW might never play olympics

its crazy to see they top 5 rated players not allowed a chance in olympics

womens in Jpn is the same thing, Ishikawa could be on the stands with Ito and Hirano as favourites
and yeah, Japan have so many players who deserves to be at the olympics.....

Yes . I never forget his game vs koki niwa . He was sleeping deep before tha match . I cant belive how it is possible . Just zjk can sleep hours or minutes before an olympic game !! Then liu guoliang told him during the game : Wake up Jike , It's an olympic game .

Zzzzhang-Jike.jpg


Thats why liu guoliang prefers him over other players . Your reply, @Gladxu and @nextlevel 's replies for @Takkyu_wa_inochi 's weird posts were complete . All he told was about speculative and ignoring the facts . I recommend him to watch zhang jike and jeong younsik game to see one of the highest level games in Rio. He even ignored mizutani's great win vs xu xin which made xx dissapointed for a period . Also Thats' s mind boggling that Liu shiwen my faviorite player may not play in olympuc single . For sure Ding ning is one of the two players . I wish we'll see a more consistent liu shiwen and see her in 2020 tokyo .
 
Last edited:
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Mar 2014
1,496
1,756
5,221
Read 3 reviews
Could easily be LSW and Ding Ning in Tokyo. They are still the best Chinese players. There is an army of others who are young who could step up before then of course. But none are head and shoulders above the rest as yet.

I hope so . I have an eye on zhu yulling . She had good wins vs liu shiwen but terrible vs Mima Ito , But liu shiwen was close to win Her game vs Mima ito .
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Sep 2013
7,259
6,230
15,300
Read 3 reviews
I hope so . I have an eye on zhu yulling . She had good wins vs liu shiwen but terrible vs Mima Ito , But liu shiwen was close to win Her game vs Mima ito .

I think 3 players was much better
you can have 1 old, 2 young, or 2 old and 1 young
now with 2, some where, some how, 1 top player will miss out

say DN and LSW this time
then 2024, CM and ZYL, - both with no Olympic experience?
or say Wang Manyu takes one spot, then CM or ZYL, a "number 1s" in the world who can't make it to the olympics....
or maybe other younger ones (since it is 5-6 years time) comes and knock out CM/ZYL/WMY

Is it me, or it seems like players life spam is getting shorter and shorter? (based on olympic cycle)
Wang Nan, Zhang Yining played in how many olympics....
 
Last edited:
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Sep 2013
7,259
6,230
15,300
Read 3 reviews
Well it is for Chinese but not other countries. Deng Yaping did she not also play many Olympics?

Its not just China that is affect
Korea, Japan, Germany etc

The 3rd best in these places is good enough to be at the Olympics,

yes, Deng Yaping also,
she could of had another 1 or 2 more games, if I recall, she retired at age 24 or so
 
  • Like
Reactions: Takkyu_wa_inochi
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Jan 2016
4,021
4,580
19,083
yes Olympics is more prestigious but really winning WTTC is a more difficult achievement, except perhaps for Chinese players, where the most difficult thing is not to win the Olympic tournament itself but to win the qualification tournaments or meet the criteria to get in the Olympic slots !
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Active Member
Oct 2016
966
1,012
2,596
yes Olympics is more prestigious but really winning WTTC is a more difficult achievement, except perhaps for Chinese players, where the most difficult thing is not to win the Olympic tournament itself but to win the qualification tournaments or meet the criteria to get in the Olympic slots !

Second that !! Also, while we are discussing why ZJK was picked for Rio , lets not forget ZJK was in quite good form in 2016 and held his own during WTTTC Trials before Rio. I believe he defeated ML in it and had only one overall defeat. Also, he bested Ma Long in Kuwait Open 2016. May be one of the few who defeated ML during that phase. Once Olympics selection was final, he dropped his guard (and went to lazy mode) in few ITTF opens but ofcourse did well in the Olympics. Quite simply he was second best CNT player at the time.

 
Last edited:
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Mar 2014
1,496
1,756
5,221
Read 3 reviews
I think 3 players was much better
you can have 1 old, 2 young, or 2 old and 1 young
now with 2, some where, some how, 1 top player will miss out

say DN and LSW this time
then 2024, CM and ZYL, - both with no Olympic experience?
or say Wang Manyu takes one spot, then CM or ZYL, a "number 1s" in the world who can't make it to the olympics....
or maybe other younger ones (since it is 5-6 years time) comes and knock out CM/ZYL/WMY

Is it me, or it seems like players life spam is getting shorter and shorter? (based on olympic cycle)
Wang Nan, Zhang Yining played in how many olympics....

I think china even can have two first timer in olympic too . As we have some players like zhang jike and Ma long who did win Gold medal in their first participation and in the other hand we have Wang hao ..... . Yes unfortunately when checking olympic cycle , chinese TT life seems shorter . Maybe some player even can get to olympic single once ( if I'm not wrong Ma lin ) . But I my self as a fan , have more positive view to Wang manyu's performance than CM and ZY . Her coach is xiao zhan . The best in CNT . I thnk Xiao zhan will produce another grandslam player after ZJK but this time in women part .
 
says Shoo...nothing to see here. - zeio
says Shoo...nothing to see here. - zeio
Well-Known Member
Jan 2018
7,228
9,319
18,297
Is it me, or it seems like players life spam is getting shorter and shorter? (based on olympic cycle)
Wang Nan, Zhang Yining played in how many olympics....

Not really shorter. It's just that Wang Nan and Wang Hao happened to be the rare cases, competing in the singles event in 3 back-to-back Olympics.

Zhang Yining only played in Athens and Beijing, missing out on Sydney to Sun Jin. As strong as she was later on, she was actually consistently suppressed by Wang Nan in her early career.

Ma Lin missed out on Sydney to Liu Guozheng.

Notable players and their respective last appearance at the Olympics:
Wang Nan, Beijing 2008, 30
WLQ, Beijing 2008, 30
KLH, Athens 2004, 29
WH, London 2012, 29
MLin, Beijing 2008, 28
ZYN, Beijing 2008, 27
LGL, Sydney 2000, 24
Guo Yue, London 2012, 24
Deng Yaping, Atlanta 1996, 23

yes, Deng Yaping also,
she could of had another 1 or 2 more games, if I recall, she retired at age 24 or so
No way was she going to play another games or 2. In an interview in 2003, she went in depth on why she retired some time after the National Games in 1997. In a nutshell, her body couldn't handle the stress anymore, because of the bone spurs in her ankles, coupled with lower back and neck injuries.

http://www.cctv.com/lm/485/11/85852.html
  主持人:实际上在1996年的时候,你那时候又是自己的一个巅峰,但是很快1997年你打完全运会了以后,你就选择了退役,为什么?

  邓亚萍:因为长年的比别人训练的时间要长,付出的比别人要多,所以当时的伤病确确实实是很痛苦,已经超出了以前训练的那种快乐,以前我从训练里头可以找到很多的快乐,但是到后期的时候训练里头找不到快乐.因为稍微练一练大夫也好,教练也好就来了,说你不要练了,可以了,就是你不要再进步多少,一直保持就可以了.但是作为我来讲,我这个人因为从小一直喜欢练习时间多一点,然后练到自己有数才停,但是到那个份上了以后,就觉得我练这么多我行吗,我没有把握,所以还是希望多一点时间去训练。但是因为身上的伤病的问题,所以可以说从训练里头找不到快乐了。我举一个例子,那个时候在准备1997年的曼彻斯特的世界锦标赛,我们做封闭训练,在正定 ,每一天我要去训练之前,专门一个大夫给我做训练前的准备工作,光做准备工作就要花40分钟的时间,别人已经开始训练了 我还在那儿做准备包脚,因为两只脚上全部是骨刺,脚腕上是骨刺,腰上还有毛病,脖子都有毛病,所以要把它固定好,因为训练量很大,它这个软组织一直是肿的,没有时间去吸收,它又没有时间休息,所以它软组织肿了以后,骨刺就会刺到你。平常的时候像现在你看,我也不会痛,因为它没有肿,给这个脚腕有一定的空间,那么骨刺还刺不到你,但是一旦你训练量上来以后呢,软组织就开始肿了,肿了又没有休息的时候,你天天还要去练,所以每一次到那个地方,它就刺你,真的是特别特别痛,所以就尽量地固定它。所以在每天训练之前都是40分钟的时间,把所有的给它捆好了,弄好了才能上场训练,练两个小时,我大概跟大家时间差不多,下来以后,要做恢复,要做一整套的恢复的操,然后再要按摩,可以说我准备再加上我恢复的时间要比我训练的时间还要长,所以我觉得是非常痛苦的。特别是在1997年的时候,我被萨马兰奇主席任命为国际奥委会运动员委员会委员,那么我想不仅仅是从运动员方面可以为国争光,我觉得在另外一个领域里头,一样可以为国争光,展示中国运动员的一种风采。但是你怎样能够做一个称职的运动员委员会委员,那个时候我觉得我没有这个能力能够做一个称职的委员,所以当时就是觉得我需要充实自己,提高自己各个方面的素质,特别是英文。因为在国际奥委会它有规定它的官方语言、它的工作语言是两种,一种是英语,一种是法语,那么它按严格要求来讲是不允许你带翻译去的,但是因为我那个时候不具备这个水平,我必须带翻译去。所以在一开始的时候确实是很受刺激,所以那时候到了清华去读书的第一天,老师就问我他说你会看,会写吗,我说不会,会说吗,不怎么会。
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: ping fun
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Oct 2014
12,288
17,747
44,319
Read 17 reviews
Second that !! Also, while we are discussing why ZJK was picked for Rio , lets not forget ZJK was in quite good form in 2016 and held his own during WTTTC Trials before Rio. I believe he defeated ML in it and had only one overall defeat. Also, he bested Ma Long in Kuwait Open 2016. May be one of the few who defeated ML during that phase. Once Olympics selection was final, he dropped his guard (and went to lazy mode) in few ITTF opens but ofcourse did well in the Olympics. Quite simply he was second best CNT player at the time.

As big a factor but forgotten was the choke of Xu Xin vs CCY at the Olympic qualification tournament. That pretty much ended any chance XX had of making the team as a singles player.

In fact, I think ZJK had done enough but it is easy to remember all the good things about Xu Xin and forget his chokes because they are so rare but his coaches don't forget them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Gladxu
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Sep 2017
402
162
863
Read 2 reviews
Yes . I never forget his game vs koki niwa . He was sleeping deep before tha match . I cant belive how it is possible . Just zjk can sleep hours or minutes before an olympic game !! Then liu guoliang told him during the game : Wake up Jike , It's an olympic game .

View attachment 17856


Thats why liu guoliang prefers him over other players . Your reply, @Gladxu and @nextlevel 's replies for @Takkyu_wa_inochi 's weird posts were complete . All he told was about speculative and ignoring the facts . I recommend him to watch zhang jike and jeong younsik game to see one of the highest level games in Rio. He even ignored mizutani's great win vs xu xin which made xx dissapointed for a period . Also Thats' s mind boggling that Liu shiwen my faviorite player may not play in olympuc single . For sure Ding ning is one of the two players . I wish we'll see a more consistent liu shiwen and see her in 2020 tokyo .

ZJK was amazing, wish we could see more of him, which match was this before where he was sleeping. Olympic games :D :D
 
Top