Butterfly Timo Boll ALC or Butterfly Innerforce ALC?

Colebob · Nov 15, 2018

Hi all,
Sorry for the long post...just trying to give good backround and be specific about my question. Thanks in advance!

I started playing Table Tennis about a year and a half ago...had never touched a paddle before (after a lifetime of competitive tennis...which ruined my knee...so no more tennis!

. I am older (58). Anyway...I play table tennis about once every week or two and currently seem to win and lose about half the time against players in the 1300-1400 level (USA). I seem to be progressing fairly rapidly. My current paddle is a Butterfly Primorac Wood with Yasaka Raksa 7 soft rubbers. It seems to work well...but I feel like it is a bit slow now as I am playing better players and that my game has improved to be able to use something a bit faster and spinnier. Plus it would be fun to get something new

I have been talking to folks and looking online everywhere I can. I think I would like to use the Tenergy 05 rubbers now (I know they are faster and spinnier...and also more "finicky"...but I feel like I am ready). I have hit a few times with others who have Tenergy 05...and it seems bouncier to me than my Raksa 7 soft...but not by a ton. I would also like to upgrade my paddle. I would like to stay with Butterfly. After researching everything...I was thinking of either the Butterfly Timo Boll ALC or the Butterfly Innerforce ALC. I would like carbon for the larger sweetspot and consistency as well as a bit more speed. I would love your opinions for them for me.

If it helps...given my tennis backround...I am pretty quick to adapt to something new...and am more of a feel player vs. a technical player. (true in both table tennis and tennis...as well as other sports). I've read the Timo Boll ALC is the faster of the two (which may be good eventually...but is it too fast for me now?) and have also heard the Innerforce ALC is softer (so easier to play with for touch shots and maybe not quite as big of a jump from my current paddle?). I "think" I read the Timo Boll has a smallish handle? If so...I have normal size (kind of large?) hands for someone who is 6 foot 1 inches tall. Also...when they say the Timo Boll is "faster" than the Innerforce ALC...how much faster is it? For example...if my current set up is a 5 on the speed scale...Is the Timo Boll ALC w/ Tenergy an 8 and the Innerforce ALC a 7.5....or is the difference between the two greater...say an 8 and a 6? Same question when it comes to feel and short game and not being so finicky against incomimg spin and touch, etc. is the Innerforce say a 8, the Timo Boll a 6 and my all wood Primorac a 10?

So...sorry for the long, wordy message.....Any suggestion on the above for me? I do play an all around game...like to attack with spin...like to not push too much...want to be the first to open up against a push (hit topspin against incoming backspin)...I like to use touch...I never chop...play pretty good defense and have good reactions....and obviously am still learning the game as I know my level currently is just OK...but hopefully will continue to improve quickly.

Thanks very much!

Colebob

chintanmashroo · Nov 15, 2018

Honestly, considering that you are still learning, my advise is to change 1 thing at a time.
Blade or Rubbers
You have to choose 1

Why?
Whenever you are accustomed to a gear it takes a lot of efforts in changing that play style/requires a good technique to adapt to any new blade/rubber out there

Solution:
As you want to stick with butterfly, you can look into: (rank wise)
1 - Maze Performance
2 - Korbel SK7
3 - SK7 Classic
4 - Petr Korbel

Changing the blade alone will give you a speed increase with Rakza 7 Soft on both sides.

Tenergy 05 is an amazing rubber; I will not recommend that rubber to learners. It requires a very good technique for all types of strokes to tame it.

I have all the 4 blades mentioned above amd all of them will work well with Rakza7 soft.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6010 using Tapatalk

thomas.pong · Nov 15, 2018

chintanmashroo said:
Honestly, considering that you are still learning, my advise is to change 1 thing at a time.
Blade or Rubbers
You have to choose 1

Why?
Whenever you are accustomed to a gear it takes a lot of efforts in changing that play style/requires a good technique to adapt to any new blade/rubber out there

Solution:
As you want to stick with butterfly, you can look into: (rank wise)
1 - Maze Performance
2 - Korbel SK7
3 - SK7 Classic
4 - Petr Korbel

Changing the blade alone will give you a speed increase with Rakza 7 Soft on both sides.

Tenergy 05 is an amazing rubber; I will not recommend that rubber to learners. It requires a very good technique for all types of strokes to tame it.

I have all the 4 blades mentioned above amd all of them will work well with Rakza7 soft.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6010 using Tapatalk

I totally agree with chintanmashroo in both the fact that you should only change one element at a time and his recommendations (except maybe the order, simply due to personal preference). I would highly recommend you use the Petr Kobel all-wood or Maze Performance with the Rakza 7 Soft on both sides. I own both of these blades and the Primorac and personally have a preference for the Petr Korbel as it's very flexible with lots of control yet still packs a punch. You're other option, if you're really drawn to Terergy, would be try the FX series especially 64 FX on your Primorac in 1.9mm, but I still think changing your blade and keeping the Rakza 7 Soft is your best option.

yogi_bear · Nov 15, 2018

If you are really keen on just choosing between 2 blades then Innerforce ALC it is but if you will ask me I will choose Petr Korbel and then 1.9mm Tenergy 05fx.

thomas.pong · Nov 15, 2018

yogi_bear said:
If you are really keen on just choosing between 2 blades then Innerforce ALC it is but if you will ask me I will choose Petr Korbel and then 1.9mm Tenergy 05fx.

Indeed! For OP's sake, I also own the Innerforce ALC (and TB ALC for that matter) but much favor the Korbel which I use with this exact setup (T05 FX 1.9mm). I'm 36, have been playing for 3 years and am around USATT 1400-1500. The ALC's are too fast for me whereas an all-wood 5-ply OFF- blade with 40-43 deg rubbers in 1.9-2.0 mm give me plenty of touch and feel for looping and the short game and a lot of power when I need it.

yoass · Nov 15, 2018

Colebob said:
My current paddle is a Butterfly Primorac Wood with Yasaka Raksa 7 soft rubbers. It seems to work well...but I feel like it is a bit slow now as I am playing better players and that my game has improved to be able to use something a bit faster and spinnier. Plus it would be fun to get something new

(...)

I have been talking to folks and looking online everywhere I can. I think I would like to use the Tenergy 05 rubbers now (I know they are faster and spinnier...and also more "finicky"...but I feel like I am ready). I have hit a few times with others who have Tenergy 05...and it seems bouncier to me than my Raksa 7 soft...but not by a ton. I would also like to upgrade my paddle. I would like to stay with Butterfly. After researching everything...I was thinking of either the Butterfly Timo Boll ALC or the Butterfly Innerforce ALC.

R7-Soft is a very spinny, fast and bouncy rubber. Not much headroom there, but if you're looking for it at all cost then T05 would fit the bill.

As blades go, the TB ALC is a very good blade, but (to me anyway, and think I'm pretty much comparable as level and age goes) very explosively so. It's a lively blade. The Innerforce ALC (not the ALC.S) does have more power but is much less lively. Some would call that more gears, probably. But it's also a very different feeling. The TB ALC has a crisp feeling (Koto outers), the Innerforce ALC is much like your Primorac except for a bit larger head size (if I recall correctly) and of course its 3rd and 5th layer of ALC.

As others say, changing one variable at a time might be the wiser approach. If you're really resolved to take the plunge, driven by the promise and thrill of new equipment (i.e., are suffering the EJ virus), maybe the Innerforce ALC would be the more obvious path. Or the Korbel as a "small steps!" upgrade.

Then again, there are so many options, and as EJ-ing goes, the choice paradox will kick in. Butterfly isn't the only vendor out there. You might want to take a breather and perhaps ask around if you can play a while with other people's gear. To get the feel of a wooden 7-ply, of different outers, different weights.

romanzdk · Nov 15, 2018

Just quick question - why is everybody recommending Petr Korbel with larger head size instead of regular sized Primorac OFF-?

Thanks for explanation.

thomas.pong · Nov 15, 2018

romanzdk said:
Just quick question - why is everybody recommending Petr Korbel with larger head size instead of regular sized Primorac OFF-?

Thanks for explanation.

Primorac is really more like an ALL+ whereas the Petr Korbel is a true OFF- (used by many professionals btw). Also the Korbel's larger head size is a big plus in terms of control, feel and flexibility.

thomas.pong · Nov 15, 2018

yoass said:
R7-Soft is a very spinny, fast and bouncy rubber. Not much headroom there, but if you're looking for it at all cost then T05 would fit the bill.

As blades go, the TB ALC is a very good blade, but (to me anyway, and think I'm pretty much comparable as level and age goes) very explosively so. It's a lively blade. The Innerforce ALC (not the ALC.S) does have more power but is much less lively. Some would call that more gears, probably. But it's also a very different feeling. The TB ALC has a crisp feeling (Koto outers), the Innerforce ALC is much like your Primorac except for a bit larger head size (if I recall correctly) and of course its 3rd and 5th layer of ALC.

As others say, changing one variable at a time might be the wiser approach. If you're really resolved to take the plunge, driven by the promise and thrill of new equipment (i.e., are suffering the EJ virus), maybe the Innerforce ALC would be the more obvious path. Or the Korbel as a "small steps!" upgrade.

Then again, there are so many options, and as EJ-ing goes, the choice paradox will kick in. Butterfly isn't the only vendor out there. You might want to take a breather and perhaps ask around if you can play a while with other people's gear. To get the feel of a wooden 7-ply, of different outers, different weights.

I'd say the Petr Korbel is actually a significant step up from the Primorac in terms of speed. The TB ALC and T05 regular (not FX) are overkill at this/our level, fun to try and in practice, but frustrating in matches and competitions, and impeding development. I had major EJ virus and it gave me more of a headache than pleasure!

Lastly, the IF ALC's head size is 157 x 150 mm, so same as Primorac and TB ALC whereas the Petr Korbel's is slightly larger at 158 x 152 mm. Non-Butterfly blades I'd also recommend for OP are the Stiga Azalea OFF, OSP Virtuoso OFF- or the Nittaku Acoustic.

FruitLoop · Nov 15, 2018

Your current set up is great and I wouldn't recommend changing it. It's fun to try new things I know but if you want to keep getting better your current set up for another year or two would be best option. Once you basically never lose even sets to those 1300-1400 players if you keep improving then maybe consider changing something. Even then I'd only change the rubbers or the blade not both.

Remember there are professional players using blades no faster than your one. In fact Ma Long used a similar speed blade in 2008 and Ma Lin won major championships with one! You really don't need more speed. You can produce unreturnable amounts of spin with that set up. It's technique you need. A good player would be absolutely able to blast rockets with your equipment.

Colebob · Nov 15, 2018

Hi all,
Thanks very much for all the advice and knowledge. Haha...I assume EJ means equipment junkie?

. I started with a Palio from Amazon for $39...was a great paddle to begin with. After a while...I did a ton of research and ended up with my current set up. I do like it...but feel it's a tad slow for me now. I did recently get a robot...so hopefully I'll be able to practice more than one every week or two to adapt to anything new. As a side note...coming from a tennis back round...I'm surprised there is no way to try out different setups (tennis racquet loaner programs). It makes table tennis decisions harder...again why I appreciate all your opinions.

There seems to be some consensus that the Korbel wood would be a better stepping stone than a carbon. Of the 2 carbons...the innerforce would be better suited to me and my learning level.

Question...it sounds like my raksa 7 soft is good...how much of a difference is there between it and tenergy 05 or 05 FX? A huge change or incremental?

One other newbie random thought...I have never had the EJ disease (love that term!) in tennis or other sports. But...if as all say...it's better to take small incremental steps in equipment...it seems then I'd always be adjusting to and learning new equipment...rather than taking a larger leap in equipment and adjusting/ learning it once and sticking with it forever?

I'll take a look at the Korbel as suggested as well as try to figure out the amount of difference between tenergy 05 and 05 FX and Raksa 7 soft.

Please keep the advice and info coming...I really appreciate it!

Thanks again,

Colebob

chintanmashroo · Nov 15, 2018

Look into these 3 blades and you can blindly pickup any of them

1 - Petr Korbel
2 - Tibhar Stratus Power Wood
3 - OSP Virtuoso Off-

They all are amazing blades in terms of Flexibility, Speed, control and faster than your current setup

Coming to Rakza 7 soft vs Tenergy 05 fx
Rakza is softer of the two and is more forgiving,
Tenergy is spin sensitive and requires a good technique to block or return incoming spin

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6010 using Tapatalk

Lightzy · Nov 15, 2018

Colebob said:
There seems to be some consensus that the Korbel wood would be a better stepping stone than a carbon. Of the 2 carbons...the innerforce would be better suited to me and my learning level.

Question...it sounds like my raksa 7 soft is good...how much of a difference is there between it and tenergy 05 or 05 FX? A huge change or incremental?

One other newbie random thought...I have never had the EJ disease (love that term!) in tennis or other sports. But...if as all say...it's better to take small incremental steps in equipment...it seems then I'd always be adjusting to and learning new equipment...rather than taking a larger leap in equipment and adjusting/ learning it once and sticking with it forever?

I'll take a look at the Korbel as suggested as well as try to figure out the amount of difference between tenergy 05 and 05 FX and Raksa 7 soft.
Colebob

You have a good setup. At that level and training twice a week, upgrading to a faster setup is more likely to make your improvement slower rather than faster.

To say that this rubber is 'faster and spinnier' than that rubber is often a bit of a misunderstanding. If the rubber was both more spinny and more fast then it would be the exact same as yours when you play it, only faster. This is never the case. What happens in practice to beginners with equipment that's too fast is that most of their balls miss the table because the speed of the equipment is much faster and it is usually actually harder to put the same spin on the ball as with the equipment they had before, plus you need even more spin to put the ball on the table.

But that said none of us is playing to be ma long and win the world cup.
Do whatever the hell you want so long as it's fun for you!

yogi_bear · Nov 15, 2018

Petr Korbel is a proven offensive blade with good control that is why a lot of people are recommending it to you if you prefer butterfly.

sspark80 · Nov 15, 2018

thomas.pong said:
I totally agree with chintanmashroo in both the fact that you should only change one element at a time and his recommendations (except maybe the order, simply due to personal preference). I would highly recommend you use the Petr Kobel all-wood or Maze Performance with the Rakza 7 Soft on both sides. I own both of these blades and the Primorac and personally have a preference for the Petr Korbel as it's very flexible with lots of control yet still packs a punch. You're other option, if you're really drawn to Terergy, would be try the FX series especially 64 FX on your Primorac in 1.9mm, but I still think changing your blade and keeping the Rakza 7 Soft is you best option.

I hope the OP doesn't mind me jumping in here w/ a question of my own. I am close in age and level to the OP.
@thomas.pong: Why do you recommend T64fx? Could you give a quick comparison of 64fx vs 05fx? I recently acquired a Virtuoso off- and wonder which rubber you think pairs better w/ it for someone at this level.
Thanks,
S

thomas.pong · Nov 16, 2018

sspark80 said:
I hope the OP doesn't mind me jumping in here w/ a question of my own. I am close in age and level to the OP.
@thomas.pong: Why do you recommend T64fx? Could you give a quick comparison of 64fx vs 05fx? I recently acquired a Virtuoso off- and wonder which rubber you think pairs better w/ it for someone at this level.
Thanks,
S

Hi sspark80, while the sponge is the same on the 05FX and 64FX, the topsheet of the 05FX is more bouncy/lively while that of the 64FX is more linear and stable also feeling a bit softer while being less heavy by 2-3g per sheet once cut. Overall it offers more control.

The Virtuoso OFF- is an amazing blade, I own one and am thinking of ordering another with a slightly larger headsize like the Korbel's. Anyway, at our level, it pairs well with rubbers such as the Tenergy FX series (64, 80, 05), Tibhar FX-P, Andro R42, Xiom Vega Europe... in 1.9-2.0 mm.

FruitLoop · Nov 16, 2018

Colebob said:
Hi all,
Thanks very much for all the advice and knowledge. Haha...I assume EJ means equipment junkie? . I started with a Palio from Amazon for $39...was a great paddle to begin with. After a while...I did a ton of research and ended up with my current set up. I do like it...but feel it's a tad slow for me now. I did recently get a robot...so hopefully I'll be able to practice more than one every week or two to adapt to anything new. As a side note...coming from a tennis back round...I'm surprised there is no way to try out different setups (tennis racquet loaner programs). It makes table tennis decisions harder...again why I appreciate all your opinions.

There seems to be some consensus that the Korbel wood would be a better stepping stone than a carbon. Of the 2 carbons...the innerforce would be better suited to me and my learning level.

Question...it sounds like my raksa 7 soft is good...how much of a difference is there between it and tenergy 05 or 05 FX? A huge change or incremental?

One other newbie random thought...I have never had the EJ disease (love that term!) in tennis or other sports. But...if as all say...it's better to take small incremental steps in equipment...it seems then I'd always be adjusting to and learning new equipment...rather than taking a larger leap in equipment and adjusting/ learning it once and sticking with it forever?

I'll take a look at the Korbel as suggested as well as try to figure out the amount of difference between tenergy 05 and 05 FX and Raksa 7 soft.

Please keep the advice and info coming...I really appreciate it!

Thanks again,

Colebob

Your equipment now could be used to pro level. It's better making one choice and sticking with it if improvement is your goal. No reason not to do that now. By the time you truly grow out of Primorac and Rakza 7 soft you'll be on your national team...i.e. you never will.

But here's the thing, the EJ is never satisfied. He always wants something new. The only way he can be satisfied is if he thinks he truly has the best of the best. The only cure for true EJs is therefore something like Viscarias and T05 both sides. You'd be better getting that and sticking with it FOREVER than tinkering yes. But only if it cures your inner EJ and only if your current set up ( which is not close to too slow ) doesn't do it for you and will result in EJing all over the place. So there you go, my advice, stick with it. If you just can't because you have an itch then go all out but then stick with that forever and ever, until tenergy 06 comes out at least.

nguyenkatori · Nov 16, 2018

In term of 1 step at a time. I suggest you replace 1 of your FH or BH rubbers only (which one you are better at). I think changing from Rakza 7 Soft to Rakza 7 could improve your speed a bit. If it not works (too fast), you can change back to your old setup without spend too much money.

ttpshot · Nov 16, 2018

I might make other members angry by saying this, but I'd say go and buy either blades. Innerforce would feel more like wooden blade than TB but you get the feeling that you're brushing the ball more.

Just ignore the advide that it'd hinder your progress by not choosing all wood blade because at your age and practice hours, it's not going to make huge difference. Choosing the equipment that makes you feel great and happy by owning it is lot more important.

I've played with outdated carbon blade for 25 years but I have absolutely no regret because I knew I was never going to practice 30+ hours a week and play competitively. It was more important for me to use a blade that feels great when I flat hit or loop.

thomas.pong · Nov 16, 2018

ttpshot said:
I might make other members angry by saying this, but I'd say go and buy either blades. Innerforce would feel more like wooden blade than TB but you get the feeling that you're brushing the ball more.

Just ignore the advide that it'd hinder your progress by not choosing all wood blade because at your age and practice hours, it's not going to make huge difference. Choosing the equipment that makes you feel great and happy by owning it is lot more important.

I've played with outdated carbon blade for 25 years but I have absolutely no regret because I knew I was never going to practice 30+ hours a week and play competitively. It was more important for me to use a blade that feels great when I flat hit or loop.

When you say outdated carbon blade, are you referring to the Gergery or another blade?

Butterfly Timo Boll ALC or Butterfly Innerforce ALC?

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